Hi, newer player here

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ACGIFT

Senior Member

10-03-2012

Keep in mind that you suffer no penalty to your XP/IP gain at all by doing beginner botmatches until level 10. Also, that's about the point that smurfs start to vanish from solo queues.

I do recommend getting into PvP soon, though, as the matchmaking system is kinda flawed in how it doesn't differentiate between types of experience, and starts you off at average elo for your given level.

As far as things to work on in botmatches, I have a few things to recommend; if you've already done them, then good:

  • Last-hitting. If you're the carry for your lane, you need to have a LOT of farm. In a botmatch, you should be aiming to get at LEAST 40-50 minions killed by the 10:00 mark, and the higher the better.
  • Pushing only when necessary. You admitted you need some work, though part of it is that the bots just make it too tempting. (that, and they're so poor at pushing early on even just good last-hitting will wind up pushing the minions forward)
  • In-lane harassment. The bots make this too easy, but it serves as "practice on a dummy." In-between your last-hitting, you'll want to make sure your lane opponent doesn't stick at full health and mana. At the very least, make them have to use up those 35 gold potions; that's basically the same as stopping them from 2 farm apiece.
  • Measure your opponent. Pursuit is sometimes justified, just not always. The key is learning to correctly predict the outcome of committing (by chasing or initiating) against someone. This includes knowing what you can do and how much health they have, but ALSO knowing what your opponent can do; this means both their mana and their cooldowns. More advanced tactics (such as anticipating ganks) also apply here, but can only be learned in PvP matches.
  • Familiarizing yourself with champions. This is just a rule of thumb that will continue forever. I don't recommend taking a brand-new champion into PvP for your first match. Ever. Play a minimum of one botmatch; then go to PvP once you felt you've got a handle on the champion.
  • Have a decent roster. I'd recommend getting familiar with multiple roles, and have multiple champions for each; if you don't own enough, then practice with some of the current week's rotation, following with the rule above. There's a good chance you might have to be flexible on who you play as a given match.

And of course, there's plenty that you'll want to focus on learning in PvP matches: for one, warding is something you CAN'T practice in botmatches, as the bots don't properly gank or brush-hide.

Even still, at low levels a lot of these skills won't be used much; however, if you focus on them, you CAN get an edge, such as learning where (and more importantly, WHEN) to ward, map awareness, (which goes hand-in-hand both directions with warding) and ganking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereg Anfaug View Post
My advice is to wait until you're consistently winning intermediate AI games, and doing average or better then average in relation to your teammates, before you start blind PvP.
Before level 20 or so, PvP games are actually much more winnable than intermediate botmatches. Remember that while beginner bots don't even have runes or masteries, intermediate bots, no matter the level of the players, are level 30 with recommended pages for both. They also play more aggressively, which can lead to late game collapses on the players' part, particularly due to the fact that intermediate bots appear to have a strong extra goldgain boost; I've regularly seen bots that had stats that indicated a complete feeder... Yet still had 10k+ gold and the items to show it.


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Linna Excel

Senior Member

10-03-2012

Thanks for the feedback guys, I'll try to get myself into normal games asap. I figure I'll try to get a basic hang of 4 of the freebie chars and then jump in. I'll try not to worry too much about the meta for now if it isn't necessary to get started.

ACGIFT, thanks for your tips. I'll try to work on those things first.


Another question, with the 6 item slots, is there any generally universal set up... like boots, 2 armors, and the rest AP/AD? I understand flexibility is important, but is there any general goals? IE min/max or generalize.


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Co˝šept

Junior Member

10-03-2012

Jump into bot games straight away. Jump in AI games when you're not doing so well.


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vulpusrex

Member

10-03-2012

I say go ahead and jump into pvp, just let your team know your new and ask for advice, largely youll get helpful people to guide you and tell you where to go, there may be a few ******s out there but just ignore there, just remember two cardinal rules, 1 win or lose just have fun, and 2 the new lux splash art is just beautiful.


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TehomCD

Senior Member

10-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linna Excel View Post
Thanks for the feedback guys, I'll try to get myself into normal games asap. I figure I'll try to get a basic hang of 4 of the freebie chars and then jump in. I'll try not to worry too much about the meta for now if it isn't necessary to get started.

ACGIFT, thanks for your tips. I'll try to work on those things first.


Another question, with the 6 item slots, is there any generally universal set up... like boots, 2 armors, and the rest AP/AD? I understand flexibility is important, but is there any general goals? IE min/max or generalize.
Which item builds to go with is surprisingly nuanced, and depends on how the game is going, what your team is like, and what the enemy team is like. Most guides for champions go into a lot of detail on this. A universal start for most champions is boots + 3 health potions, since mobility is so important. After that, it really depends on what champion you're playing and what role you're trying to fill. Some builds are much more cookie-cutter than others: 'AD Carries' probably have the least overall flexibility, since they're all about damage, so there's not much variation there.


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Itsmedemo

Senior Member

10-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereg Anfaug View Post
My advice is to wait until you're consistently winning intermediate AI games, and doing average or better then average in relation to your teammates, before you start blind PvP.

When you're doing blind normals, you don't have to worry about the meta much - especially sub30, it's not uncommon for teams to still have two players top.

You seem to be aware of some of the differences between AI and PvP, with your comments about pushing/chasing, so you're probably ok to start if you're comfortable with your AI performance. Just remember that everyone is still learning at your level, so almost nothing you see from other players will actually end up being good tactics at 30+, even if it works very well in blind. Learn as you go, and eventually you'll gain a more complete knowledge of the game just via experience.
Intermediate bots are better than players at level 9.

To OP: You should just start PVP now. Generally the players skill that you play against will grow as your own skill does. Just hop in now, the longer you play against bots, the more bad habits you will have to remove when you start playing against players.


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ACGIFT

Senior Member

10-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linna Excel View Post
Another question, with the 6 item slots, is there any generally universal set up... like boots, 2 armors, and the rest AP/AD? I understand flexibility is important, but is there any general goals? IE min/max or generalize.
As TehomCD said, the exact layout will vary wildly, not just by role, but by specific champion, the build type you're taking, (most champions have at least TWO semi-viable ways to go) and how the game is going... Even what the enemy builds.

About the only universal thing is you'll pretty much always want boots, and if a game goes long enough, you'll build five major items.

As for a few general ideas:

  • If you're going for an AD Carry, you'll want 4 (if not all 5) of your items to relate to your auto-attack, specifically in a big way for what they each contribute. A typical setup is an Infinity Edge, (for raw damage, plus crit chance) Phantom Dancer, (for attack speed and crit chance) Bloodthirster, (more raw damage and lifesteal) and Last Whisper. (armor penetration) Order of the items will vary wildly depending on what's needed, and the fifth item could come earlier and be anything.
  • If you're going with an AD jungler, (or some AD laners) your first item will almost always be a Wriggle's Lantern. It's dirt-cheap but provides a surprising amount of value out of it: damage, armor, lifesteal, and a couple valuable special effects.
  • A champion playing support will typically invest in goldgain (aka GP10) items early; often they will skip boots at first so they can get a head start, such as a Faerie Champ (and wards/pots) for their Philosopher's Stone. The goldgain item will be held onto as long as possible to make up for the lack of farm.
  • If the enemy team is all-AD, an easy way to shut them down is to, say, build Thornmail on all your tanky people, even some of your squishies. Have a tank stack this with a Frozen Heart to shut them down cold. But against an AP-heavy team, this tactic can sink you fast.
  • Against a dangerous AP team (or just when the enemy's AP carry is carrying them all hard) you'll want to shut them down through tankiness; Banshee's Veil can really mess up a day for a combo burster, both through pure resistance, but also negating the first hit. (often the CC)

The above just illustrate a handful of the countless situations you'll run into, simply to explain how this sort of building works. For starting out, you'll almost typically go with one of these combinations:

  • Boots + 3 potions (useful for almost all)
  • Cloth Armor + 5 potions (jungler)
  • Faerie Charm + 2 wards + 4 pots (supports)
  • Doran's (sword/shield/ring)

There's some alternatives, but they tend to be special cases, such as limited to a single champion, and even in those cases, you wouldn't be terrible going with one of the above four that best suits them.


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Linna Excel

Senior Member

10-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TehomCD View Post
Which item builds to go with is surprisingly nuanced, and depends on how the game is going, what your team is like, and what the enemy team is like...

'AD Carries' probably have the least overall flexibility, since they're all about damage, so there's not much variation there.
Yeah, I found out builds are both nuanced and frustrating in a custom game earlier. I was trying Irelia for the first time, and I got behind early. I couldn't really catch up and once I lost my lane, it seemed like the other lanes collapsed too right after that. My final stats were ok for a first try 4/5/4 considering I was down a few levels for most of the game, but I found getting money to build items to be much more difficult to get.


So when I'm playing Ashe, I'm going to want boots and after that mostly damage items. I like getting phil on her and building it into one of the two other options, is that okay overall, at least starting out? And while I'm thinking about it, does tenacity stack if I were to get those treads and the blue phil stone upgrade?

If I go soraka, I take it I'm supposed to just get the GP items and wards. What about going mid with her? Starcall plus the silence seems to be working fairly well enough for me atm.


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LegendaryLemur

Senior Member

10-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linna Excel View Post
So when I'm playing Ashe, I'm going to want boots and after that mostly damage items. I like getting phil on her and building it into one of the two other options, is that okay overall, at least starting out? And while I'm thinking about it, does tenacity stack if I were to get those treads and the blue phil stone upgrade?

If I go soraka, I take it I'm supposed to just get the GP items and wards. What about going mid with her? Starcall plus the silence seems to be working fairly well enough for me atm.
I wouldn't build philo stone on ashe. She really doesn't need the regeneration and you should be getting plenty of gold from farming (especially considering her bonus from hawkshot). It will delay you getting infinity edge which is something you really want asap on ashe. If you are having trouble with mana, you are probably spamming your volley too much. Only use it when you are full on mana to harass or when you are going for a kill. You can also toggle frost shot for every other hit while you are kiting if you are low on mana.

Tenacity items do not stack with each other, although tenacity does stack multiplicatively with other forms of CC-duration-reduction (e.g. the top mastery in the defense tree, irelia's innate, or mundo's w)

If you are going mid with soraka you will probably be building her as an ap carry, so don't build the typical support items. Instead build items that grant ap like rabadon's, rylai's or rod of ages, abyssal scepter, zhonya's, deathfire grasp, will of the ancients etc. Soraka is really more suited to a support role however, in my opinion.


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Linna Excel

Senior Member

10-10-2012

I want to thank everyone who posted in this thread, I just had my first two matches today.

Ended up playing Soraka both times and have enjoyed it. The first one we had a disconnect on our side about 20-25 minutes in and had to resign. Second one, we one thanks to a player with katrina on our side. I started on bottom but ended up being his support/assist and had a final tally of 6/3/17. That was probably a little higher than it should have been but our nunu and warwick didn't keep up in leveling so my natural response was to head to mid where kat was and help pick up the slack by splitting between healing and getting the occasional E and Q in. A few late Es caused me to steal a few kills, but they were really good agaisnt lux and fiddle.


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