Jungle is almost as bad as support now...

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Kalarepa

Senior Member

10-03-2012

I agree with OP. Especially in tournament games, jungler is nothing more than CC support, warding and clearing wards with oracle. I miss old times, when you could play jungle Yi or Trynd and farm enough to carry in late game. Today, if your hero is useless with just HoG, mobility bots and oracle - then you shouldn't jungle on him.


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Thadious

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Senior Member

10-03-2012

I've mained jungle since the end of season 1, and I've gotta say that it has never been in a better place!

You are required to balance farm and ganking.
You can share your jungle.
You get to see more action than all of the rest of your team (if you're doing your job).

If anything is going to be changed about jungling, it will be VERY minor tweaks.

The reason people hate jungling, is because they get blamed for everything bad. It takes men with iron wills to stay in this jungle!


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Antholagnia

Senior Member

10-03-2012

This is an interesting discussion. I was just wondering about this topic because I'm struggling with Kha'zix so much. I typically play tank junglers so Kha is a change for me. I'm noticing that if I don't pick a tank then nobody else will either, and that seems to put our team at a disadvantage that is difficult to overcome. Kha'zix is a fun champ to play, but I feel like I'm screwing my team when I pick him.

I didn't play this game during season 1. I'd be real interested to see a jungle that actually fights back a bit.


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Skrapt

Senior Member

10-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thadious View Post
I've mained jungle since the end of season 1, and I've gotta say that it has never been in a better place!

You are required to balance farm and ganking.
You can share your jungle.
You get to see more action than all of the rest of your team (if you're doing your job).

If anything is going to be changed about jungling, it will be VERY minor tweaks.

The reason people hate jungling, is because they get blamed for everything bad. It takes men with iron wills to stay in this jungle!
Not really, explain to me what you're going to do as Master Yi when I pick Malphite jungle. I farm the jungle as fast as you do and scale better off limited gold. If your ganks fail or worse you get counter-ganked, what do you do?

Mid-late game you run into team fights, get CC'd and die in two seconds? What does Malphite do if he is underfarmed or behind in levels? A massive AoE knockup, Slows a target, AoE AS slow and has natural tankiness to soak damage.

Same thing with Tryndamere, run in get CC'd, ult, run out, die. If I pick Cho'Gath, I do an AoE knockup/slow, AoE 3 sec silence, and a massive true damage nuke that requires no items, plus I have high base stats.

There are certain champions that are just far too reliant on gold and levels to be viable in competitive play, but they don't do well in Top lane. They CAN jungle, but are outclassed heavily because of the way jungle functions now.

Those champions have a short window early game to try to snowball (a la Shaco), and if they fail, they can only split push and hope their team knows how to hold off 4v5s (Yi).

I'm not sure that speaks to bad champion design, or the jungle, but it's the same reason Kha'Zix (despite being labeled as a jungler) is terribad in the jungle. He has low base stats, limited utility, and is heavily gold/level dependent.

Go through the jungler tag champions and tell me how many of them are viable in competitive play. It doesn't seem to feel like Riot knows what makes a good jungler, or how to balance them as to not be better in lane. The one they got dead on was Skarner, but that was only after months of tweaks.


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ratcharmer

Senior Member

10-03-2012

I feel that it's kinda a sad commentary that other roles are now complaining about being "almost as bad as support".

But yeah, I have noticed junglers seem a little weak lately.


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iainB85

Senior Member

10-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antholagnia View Post
This is an interesting discussion. I was just wondering about this topic because I'm struggling with Kha'zix so much. I typically play tank junglers so Kha is a change for me. I'm noticing that if I don't pick a tank then nobody else will either, and that seems to put our team at a disadvantage that is difficult to overcome. Kha'zix is a fun champ to play, but I feel like I'm screwing my team when I pick him.

I didn't play this game during season 1. I'd be real interested to see a jungle that actually fights back a bit.
Totally agree.. Kha is a fun champion with some unique abilities, and he can clear the jungle just fine. I do fine with him early game and it's a blast.

Then the team fight phase rolls around and it's just so blatantly obvious that we'd be doing 10x better if I picked a tanky support jungle as it's impossible to get in and do any damage without being focused in a team fight without great backup.


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mr underhilI

Senior Member

10-03-2012

this is so true, i can only jungle with champions like maok or amumu and WIN, if i go anything like rengar or khazix ( an assassin type champ with no "hard" cc ) iam doomed to fail, even if i get feed, cc and tankiness plays a big part in late game, imaging the enemy sivir is feed, now if your playing rengar, even if you sneak behind her, as soon as you pop up she either flashes away or her team come to 1 shot you.

now an amumu can Q on the the carry, not worry about the damage hes going to take, ult the carry if shes getting away, and thats 10 sec of him actually doing something, as suppose to go in try to get a kill but die because you have no cc or tankiness.

NOT to mention amumus maok etc fast jungle clear. and insane ganks.


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iainB85

Senior Member

10-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by vandox View Post
this is so true, i can only jungle with champions like maok or amumu and WIN, if i go anything like rengar or khazix ( an assassin type champ with no "hard" cc ) iam doomed to fail, even if i get feed, cc and tankiness plays a big part in late game, imaging the enemy sivir is feed, now if your playing rengar, even if you sneak behind her, as soon as you pop up she either flashes away or her team come to 1 shot you.

now an amumu can Q on the the carry, not worry about the damage hes going to take, ult the carry if shes getting away, and thats 10 sec of him actually doing something, as suppose to go in try to get a kill but die because you have no cc or tankiness.

NOT to mention amumus maok etc fast jungle clear. and insane ganks.
Glad to see so many others feel exactly the same on this issue.


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VictimEN

Senior Member

10-03-2012

Melee without tank in general has problems; it's not exactly a jungler issue.


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iainB85

Senior Member

10-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by VictimEN View Post
Melee without tank in general has problems; it's not exactly a jungler issue.
Well, the problem is that tank is pretty much forced to be jungle... as you can't really put tank top or bottom, and top is a strait up counter pick / snowball war.