Jungle is almost as bad as support now...

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HughMyronbrough

Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilybear View Post
i really like support tank jungling with maokai/leona/naut. you mentioned buffing the jungle camps but wont that make those junglers a lot harder to play early game as they usually get pretty low early anyway?

Im just wondering because those are the only champs i really like jungling on and would really hate to see that playstyle lost because no one did anything different.
Start Cloth/5 instead of Boots/3.


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RexSaur

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
We've actually been working on changes for the jungle in anticipation for Season 3 and though I can't really give all the details here because we are still iterating, I'd like to give you guys some insights into what's going on.

There are a multitude of issues we're tackling and they are very much intertwined. The current dominant jungle strategy (GP10 Support / Tanks) is fairly stagnant and the overall current jungle playstyle in many cases severely limits potential strategy and choices in other lanes/roles as well.

One large problem is that efficient farming of the jungle has very little pay off compared to constantly applying lane pressure by camping / ganking. Overall junglers severely lack in gold unless they successfully gank and snowball the game from the get-go and/or opt for a GP10 strategy.

The approach we're currently taking is to significantly increase the rewards of jungle camps over time (junglers already have a huge impact on the early game). To go along with this though, we are buffing jungle camps back up to actually be more threatening while simultaneously offering new / improved item paths that allow players to specialize in the jungle. Overall we want junglers to be rewarded for building combat stats rather than always being forced to build gold generation items.

This is not the only thing we're changing in the jungle for next season, but these types of things are definitely on our radar.
Sounds great!

Cant wait for S3, and the possible return of jungle Fiddles/WW.


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Shining Gold

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Senior Member

10-15-2012

To be honest i dont think supports and junglers are that bad, i main mid but i preferably like to play support when im playing with premade 5.


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deathtoyew

Junior Member

10-15-2012

noice


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Skrapt

Senior Member

10-15-2012

As a platinum rated jungler with over 1500 games played in Season 2, please, be careful about changing the jungle again. You place a lot of pressure on having the jungle control both the meta and flow of the game, and have not changed much in regards to laning other than the minion damage nerf.

I also want to say the jungle should be accessible to a lot of champs and different playstyles. Ideally you should merge the playstyles of the jungle from Season 1 and Season 2. Tanky Support junglers should still be viable in Season 3, but so should the carry junglers from Season 1.

The more options you give, the more teams can create new metas and team compositions. Do not artificially enforce a meta by forcing changes to the game. The last thing I want to see is a jungle completely dominated by Fiddlesticks, Warwick, Trundle and other single target sustain champs again. I want options. I want Fizz to be viable, I want Fiora to find a place in the game, I want Kha'zix (who was supposed to be a jungler) to actually be able to get enough gold and experience in the jungle to be viable mid-game.

But I also want Nautilus to not get crushed by the changes when he already has a slow clear, or Sejuani to further fall into obscurity.

When it comes down to it what I'm saying is I hope the changes expand the arsenal of viable junglers without removing any of the current popular picks, and open up new strategies and gameplay styles while still maintaning the current tanky/support meta as an option.

And lastly, Ganks are what make this game exciting and fun to watch. If you punish a jungler too much for ganking the game will become stagnant and boring. However, if you encourage counter-jungling when you see another jungler ganking that is actually significant (I believe counter-jungling is not significant enough in Season 2's jungle), this adds additional depth and a way for non-ganking junglers to punish the enemy. In short, the punishment shouldn't come from Riot putting predisposed penalties for not-clearing your jungle and ganking, but instead from the enemy reacting to your gank and invading your jungle to counter you.


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dredzach

Senior Member

10-15-2012

It used to be that the jungler could keep up in gold/levels while just jungling. I miss that.


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Stonewall008

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by vcortis View Post
As a platinum rated jungler with over 1500 games played in Season 2, please, be careful about changing the jungle again. You place a lot of pressure on having the jungle control both the meta and flow of the game, and have not changed much in regards to laning other than the minion damage nerf.

I also want to say the jungle should be accessible to a lot of champs and different playstyles. Ideally you should merge the playstyles of the jungle from Season 1 and Season 2. Tanky Support junglers should still be viable in Season 3, but so should the carry junglers from Season 1.

The more options you give, the more teams can create new metas and team compositions. Do not artificially enforce a meta by forcing changes to the game. The last thing I want to see is a jungle completely dominated by Fiddlesticks, Warwick, Trundle and other single target sustain champs again. I want options. I want Fizz to be viable, I want Fiora to find a place in the game, I want Kha'zix (who was supposed to be a jungler) to actually be able to get enough gold and experience in the jungle to be viable mid-game.

But I also want Nautilus to not get crushed by the changes when he already has a slow clear, or Sejuani to further fall into obscurity.

When it comes down to it what I'm saying is I hope the changes expand the arsenal of viable junglers without removing any of the current popular picks, and open up new strategies and gameplay styles while still maintaning the current tanky/support meta as an option.

And lastly, Ganks are what make this game exciting and fun to watch. If you punish a jungler too much for ganking the game will become stagnant and boring. However, if you encourage counter-jungling when you see another jungler ganking that is actually significant (I believe counter-jungling is not significant enough in Season 2's jungle), this adds additional depth and a way for non-ganking junglers to punish the enemy. In short, the punishment shouldn't come from Riot putting predisposed penalties for not-clearing your jungle and ganking, but instead from the enemy reacting to your gank and invading your jungle to counter you.
Let's make babies!


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Double Stranded

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Items that make weak junglers strong = Items that make strong junglers OP

Unless it's a Smite-on-a-stick item I don't see how to prevent this from happening


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Deresia

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
In some ways, yes, though not completely.

We aren't going all the way back to the extreme of the old jungle where you would just get crushed unless you were Warwick, but we do feel there is a happy medium between Season 1 and Season 2 that we can strike.

The biggest difference here though is that we will be offering itemization that will help champions who need that extra boost in the jungle. Champions who are already super strong in the jungle may opt to not build these items, but it's pretty interesting to see what new junglers may become viable with these new items.
Will we see issues with these new items the same way Wriggle's was an issue when it was first released? As in, top laners abused it because it gave so much for them, and even AD carries until it was subsequently nerfed. And a weaker Wriggle's may be a detriment to the newer jungle you propose where jungle camps are harder to fight.


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Leib Olmai

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
Well a lot of the directional changes we're making for Season 3 are to make sure there are niches for the various jungle types.

For example, the nerfing of the jungle camps' damage really left no room for "safe" junglers such as Warwick since sustain was no longer a thing. Everyone can just clear with Boots + Health Pots and apply pressure to lanes.

When we do these changes for Season 3, there may be some junglers who are simply too strong in too many categories and we'll have to address that in the context of the new jungle. Overall though, we're looking to make sure there's a reason to bring X jungler over Y jungler depending on the situation.
By buffing the Damage/HP or armor of jungle creep, or making them more threatening aren't you afraid that it give us a lot less viable choice of jungler ?

Right now, some jungler just can't jungle without a leash. And you don't always get a good one either.
On the other hand, if you have a good leash, at Golem/Lizard, jungler with AoE are just so much better than anything else.

I remember with WW, GP, Fiddle and Rammus used to be the best jungler mainly because WW had substain and Rammus could live longer than anyone in the jungle. If you want to go back to that, I will also see some jungler struggling and might also become unviable as jungler.

Some people like to jungle Fizz, Leona, Pantheon, Tryndamere, etc. I can see them being unable to if you buff them too much.

And what about "assassin" jungler that are more squishy? they will gain more gold, but will have to recall more often.

I know you want to make people stop going for Gp10 and gain more gold from the jungle. You also need to counterbalance it with some nerf. I totally agree. But I just hope we won't go back "old jungle meta", it was really bad.

A good chance I can see is a nerf to Oracle. One of the reason jungler will go for Gp10 is to rush them and go for an early oracle that will put them behind in item.