Jungle is almost as bad as support now...

First Riot Post
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Statikk

Live Balance Designer

10-15-2012
3 of 4 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eat Orange Be K View Post
If you don't mind commenting, you mention the predominance of both support tank junglers and focus on ganking/lane pressure. I remember reading an article from Stonewall a while back about old jungle and the balancing act of strategies between "Farming" Junglers, "Ganking" junglers, and "Invading/Counterjungling" junglers. It was really insightful into how each had balances and strengths/weaknesses against the other types. Are you guys keeping aware of this kind of interplay and looking to bring it back? It seems that the jungle lost a lot of it's dynamic and strategy; Farming junglers went by the wayside, and only about half the Invading/Counter junglers kept strength.

I'm not saying a full revert should be put in place, but it would be nice to see the strategic interplay in jungler vs. jungler be developed again so it's not just limited to "countergank or try to counterjungle during ganks." It felt much more like the jungle was almost it's own place before and the junglers really were against each other. Now it feels a lot more like the jungle is just a starting point and the other jungler isn't the direct opposition to your jungle as much as the other team as a while.
Well a lot of the directional changes we're making for Season 3 are to make sure there are niches for the various jungle types.

For example, the nerfing of the jungle camps' damage really left no room for "safe" junglers such as Warwick since sustain was no longer a thing. Everyone can just clear with Boots + Health Pots and apply pressure to lanes.

When we do these changes for Season 3, there may be some junglers who are simply too strong in too many categories and we'll have to address that in the context of the new jungle. Overall though, we're looking to make sure there's a reason to bring X jungler over Y jungler depending on the situation.


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Deathnode4Athene

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Junior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by x Khann x View Post
If you ask me, I think so-called junglers just want to avoid fighting. I think they use it as an excuse so they don't have to fight in a lane. Its also a good excuse to keep the blame off of them because most likley he is not feeding as much..maybe.

If im on a losing team and if the jungler sucks (meaning he is not succeeding in ganks or leveling with the team), he tends to start calling everyone else a noob out of fustration.

I've had the exact opposite experience. I main jungle and if I'm not camping their lane (which I feel like people forget there are 3) or they are losing, it's instantly my fault. If a gank goes wrong and we get counter ganked or if my laner overestimates their own/ underestimates the opponents damage, then it's "wtf?! NOOB JUNGLE." I guess I don't mind the current state of the jungle as much as how people that don't jungle treat their jungle. I believe someone referred it to being a "second class citizen" earlier.

tl;dr I'm just a jungle trying to help out anyway I can, f*** me right?


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breadbocks

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Senior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
In some ways, yes, though not completely.

We aren't going all the way back to the extreme of the old jungle where you would just get crushed unless you were Warwick, but we do feel there is a happy medium between Season 1 and Season 2 that we can strike.

The biggest difference here though is that we will be offering itemization that will help champions who need that extra boost in the jungle. Champions who are already super strong in the jungle may opt to not build these items, but it's pretty interesting to see what new junglers may become viable with these new items.
Please, please, please don't make another Wriggles. If you're making new items for junglers, make sure that Tops can't steal it and make better use of it than junglers can.


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IrrationalNoob

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordian View Post
Morde will still steal every wraith and wolf camp from the jungler just how he is.
Thats fine, all this means is if you have a mid capable of doing this and that benefits from it with low cost it is still worth giving up your farm and camping somewhere. Which is not the point of the rework.

Which is why I asked about the XP issue because I think mid laners being able to hit 6 before junglers every time without fail on even the fastest clearing junglers is a root cause of the fall of aggressive junglers.


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Jordian

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
Well a lot of the directional changes we're making for Season 3 are to make sure there are niches for the various jungle types.

For example, the nerfing of the jungle camps' damage really left no room for "safe" junglers such as Warwick since sustain was no longer a thing. Everyone can just clear with Boots + Health Pots and apply pressure to lanes.

When we do these changes for Season 3, there may be some junglers who are simply too strong in too many categories and we'll have to address that in the context of the new jungle. Overall though, we're looking to make sure there's a reason to bring X jungler over Y jungler depending on the situation.
So by the changes in season 3 are you aiming for having other viable junglers for different roles in the team? As in not every jungler is going to be a tank fast clear and gank. Now they will have to focus on not clearing so much since its harder and now more heavy sustain junglers like WW being able to clear with no problem but not as much lane pressure.


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Eat Orange Be K

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
Overall though, we're looking to make sure there's a reason to bring X jungler over Y jungler depending on the situation.
I love you.


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HughMyronbrough

Member

10-15-2012

Statikk, off topic, but what is your view on Kassadin at the moment?


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spacedogg

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
Well a lot of the directional changes we're making for Season 3 are to make sure there are niches for the various jungle types.

For example, the nerfing of the jungle camps' damage really left no room for "safe" junglers such as Warwick since sustain was no longer a thing. Everyone can just clear with Boots + Health Pots and apply pressure to lanes.

When we do these changes for Season 3, there may be some junglers who are simply too strong in too many categories and we'll have to address that in the context of the new jungle. Overall though, we're looking to make sure there's a reason to bring X jungler over Y jungler depending on the situation.
@Statikk Are you guys considering vamping up rewards based on how many jungle camps have been killed? Or giving certain gold buffs (like +X gold per neutral monster killed) to summoners who select smite?


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Stonewall008

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
Well a lot of the directional changes we're making for Season 3 are to make sure there are niches for the various jungle types.

For example, the nerfing of the jungle camps' damage really left no room for "safe" junglers such as Warwick since sustain was no longer a thing. Everyone can just clear with Boots + Health Pots and apply pressure to lanes.

When we do these changes for Season 3, there may be some junglers who are simply too strong in too many categories and we'll have to address that in the context of the new jungle. Overall though, we're looking to make sure there's a reason to bring X jungler over Y jungler depending on the situation.
I am very very happy to hear this. I was about to write an article on how, in order to not make the jungle so stagnant, new items had to be introduced and sustain needing to play a factor again. I'm way too excited for this now.


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rabidzombie2015

Senior Member

10-15-2012

I feel like I'm going to have to relearn the game during season 3 D: