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Jungle is almost as bad as support now...

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dunkmaster ep

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
RawrWiLL51:
This image is an interesting example, Ali has more kills and same assists and more cs yet the least gold..

http://i.imgur.com/Ec6X5.jpg



Yup, Ali finished his Shurelya's early which is smart and the real problem comes from that supports with GP/10 runes, masteries stacked with GP/5 items = Too much gold income for supports at this point.

I've played support quite a bit, as I do almost every role (except top probably) and it's become pretty apparent that the current way we can enmasse stack gp/second buffs creates WAY too much income for completely free to supports, or heck even non-supports on the right champs and situations.


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Charzin

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
EugenidesAttolis:
A shift in game mechanics doesn't fundamentally address the complaint though. The complaint is that a subset of characters excels at a given role. The jungle is less rewarding in gold and exp because its safer. Thetes not someone in your face. Lets examine alternatives

1) Jungle gold/exp increase to match lanes. Literally nothing has changed. Laners will still grab camps to secure an edge over their opponents, and the best junglers will still be those who can maximize value on minimum resources.

2) Thejungle is radically altered to favor assassins instead ofutility junglers. How is this different? We replace Role A and Champion Subset A to Role B and Champion Subset B.

The meta can change, but it doesn't shift the idea that certain champs will be favored for certain roles. shifting who best fits where doesn't alter that there will always be an optimum set of choices, and everyone else.


Part of the reason the old jungle worked better for assassins is that camps weren't as easy to clear, so your morgana can't drop a binding and pool and take your wraiths every spawn. Bot lane can't clear golems without halfway killing themselves. With how much tougher the mobs used to be, you needed some sort of shield or lifesteal (or to just be tanky like amumu) to survive it.

In the old jungle, both assassins like Lee and Nocturne as well as farmers like Udyr and Amumu, worked.


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Stonewall008

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Btw - I just have to say this is one of my favorite topics in general discussion as of late. I'm writing an article on RoG specifically because of this. I should have it up by today.

It wasn't only the remake that killed the jungle - it was mobility creep and the nerfs to the gankers happening at the same time.

We switched from junglers like Trundle, Udyr and Amumu to junglers like Lee Sin, Maokai and Rammus as soon as the remake happened. Junglers that could get those assured kills were favored and they obtained crazy gold. It was easy for them to gank targets because they didn't take boots yet and the characters out were like Kassadin and Twisted Fate who are easy to murder.

Riot then decided to nerf Lee Sin and Rammus and other gankers while steadily releasing champions with mobility and players started adapting to boots start as sustain was gutted over and over. The now weak gankers were given a much more difficult time at actually killing a majority of the cast that gank gold became something you could no longer reliably factor into your build.


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Trollseph

Member

10-15-2012

Most of us play support because we laugh at you when you blame the game on us, but when we jungle, which we can do very well, you blame us. It's the laners that make it hell. Ask anyone.


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Tofubots

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Lee sin is my favorite champ but I find constant problems when picking him up:

I need to do successful ganks. That doesn't mean just blowing their flash. I need to get a kill. The assists don't help as much and I will probably be behind. If I fail a gank (no one dies) then I'm gauranteed to be behind. If I fail 2 or 3 ganks I'm usually already behind our team's support. It's just much safer to go with some tanky sustain jungler and grab gp10s.

Even if I do well, if the game drags on past 40 minutes I'm usually not doing much to the other team other than being a utility guy kicking opponents back.

Sure you can build Lee tanky but I don't think he provides as much damage absorption as other junglers in that regard. Lee should be a ganker/assassin first and foremost. At times I think Riot nerfed him too hard and now he is just used for his mobility/utility rather than his original purpose, which was to assassinate like rengar.


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TMTrainer

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Even though I feel Junglers get the bad end of the stick, its only for a couple reasons.

1) Lanes take your jungle... your one source of gold in the game.
2) People get mad at you for killing someone in their lane, when Jungle is normally totally shut out by the end of the game, if he doesn't get kills.
3) They need to build a little tanky.
4) They need to abide to a jungle build, normally lacking in damage.


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Dactylogram

Senior Member

10-15-2012

I completely agree.


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Kintanon

Member

10-15-2012

Jungle gets screwed by laners:
1. Has to take smite. That means you only get one "utility" summoner.
2. Has to spend time running through the jungle to farm, that gives you a much lower maximum farm count at any given time than a laner.
3. Has to ward the entire map (In solo queue) because laners refuse to buy wards. This cuts into your already meager supply of gold.
4. Has to babysit all of the lanes (in solo queue) because if you haven't ganked every lane twice by the 10 minute mark the laners start raging at you.
5. Your laners will counterjungle you, stealing your wraiths, golems, even wolves, and demanding blue and red buffs.

The result is that the jungler ends up being 2 levels behind everyone else, dead broke from buying wards and not being able to farm, and then someone is expected to run into a lane and take out an enemy that is full farmed up and two or three levels ahead of him. And GOD FORBID you fail a gank and die. Then it's all over. Team rage, shouts of "NOOB JUNGLER! UNINSTALL!" and that sort of thing.

I've started opting to go top or support instead of jungle or support because jungle just isn't fun. It's by far the most stressful role in the game because you are expected to pull out miracles with little or no resources.

When I DO jungle I have to just ignore my team, steal their creeps whenever they leave the lane (Without calling it) and just farm myself up until I'm ready to gank. Largely because I have to be able to gank solo because no matter how much I ping when going in there is a 50/50 chance that the laner is going to just stand there while I try to solo.


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Skarnold Trump

Senior Member

10-15-2012

oh god.
i'm just gonna go through this post assuming he's addressing solo queue as apposed to tournament play, because the tournament players should be the ones analyzing tournament play instead of random 1200 elo solo queue players. from a personal perspective what he says is pretty accurate for competitive games, but as a competitive jungler myself i have no problem with the current state of jungle gold in tournament play and i doubt any pro junglers do either.

Quote:
There's no room assassin/damage dealing type junglers with the current design. The jungle just doesn't provide enough farm compared to lane anymore, and you can't rely on getting lots of kills from ganks early if the enemy team plays smart and/or your team doesn't.

there are almost always early ganking opportunities if you're good enough to see them, especially at low elo. if you're good enough as a jungler you'll get successful ganks off, and that applies to every elo including 2200+. even if the enemy team plays passively there's usually opportunities for tower dives, counterjungling or lane farming that can get you ahead of everyone else in the game.
the latest release khazix is by all means an assassin/damage dealing jungler who relies a bit on farm. if you think the current jungle doesn't provide enough potential gold for "carry" junglers to be effective go loop up some of xmithie's 2600 elo jungle khazix games on his stream. the same thing can by all means happen at lower elo if you're skilled enough, and the relative skill required at, for example, the elo of the OP is much less.
Quote:
That's also if you even get to clear your own jungle. With how easy the small camps are now, other lanes pretty much demand half your camps to get an edge over their enemy laner... and why shouldn't they, it's a great tactic for them... long as you aren't the poor jungler!

if you have a problem with laners setting you negligibly behind by taking the first wraith spawn then just tell them not to. i personally don't have a problem with it, i just do golems first/stall time for wraiths to respawn or my smite to come up with an early gank or enemy wraith steal.
Quote:
So what does that devolve the jungle into? A tanky support with good initiate and CC. The best jungle picks by far these days are champs like Amumu, Nautilius, Malphite, etc... who can win team fights without any gold at all due to their kits.

the fact of it is that in solo queue picks don't matter very much, and especially at low elo the way you play the game matters exponentially more than what hero you're playing. it's not hard at all to get away with picking a non supporty jungler in solo queue if you're good at playing the character.
Quote:
FYI: As support running GP5 runes and building dual GP5 I usually end up with more gold at the end of the game than our jungle, even if they played well and had similar presence (kills/assists)... that's how little the jungle is currently worth... further strengthening my metaphor as jungle the secondary support.

that simply won't happen in a real game unless your jungler is far behind, and it will by no means happen if he "played well and had similar presence." not much else to say about that.


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Tumblr Feminist

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Bump, Riot I used to main junglers back in 2009-10 when warwick was THE jungler. I had so much fun then, and I still had a lot of fun up through 2011, but when you changed the jungle. I started playing Top/ranged ad. Fix my favorite position.