Jungle is almost as bad as support now...

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vortical42

Senior Member

10-15-2012

I've been trying to figure out why playing jungle felt so wonky for most of season two. The OP nailed the issue, item dependent jungler just can't keep up in the current meta. I saw the effect first hand, maining Nocture in the jungle. Pre jungle nerf, jungle nocture was hard, but when you got it right he could be scary at every stage of the game. Post nerf the jungle clear got easier but there was a really nasty limbo zone after the first full clear. Supposedly the new jungle would provide more opportunities to gank. In reality, clearing your jungle didn't provide even close to enough gold to afford that first 'core' item. It left a carry nocturne with the choice between a gank or invade with a gimped equipment set or sitting around waiting for the camps to respawn. All that was before the lanes figured out that they could steal jungle to make up for their own lack of farm.


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Vuther

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaShongo53 View Post
And that is the exact point of the OP. Those champs can thrive in the jungle without much gold by just using GP/10's for income and they use the stats from those items to be tanky enough to still gank effectively.

Someone like Khaz'ix doesn't get enough gold from the jungle to gank effectively. If he builds GP/10's he doesn't do enough damage and lacks the CC to have a good gank.

If there was a GP/10 with stats similar to brutalizer than someone like Khaz'ix could keep up a bit better.
I'm not disagreeing with them, I'm disagreeing with your wording. You stated gankers need to be given some edge over the supporters, but the distinction you state is not always true.


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EugenidesAttolis

Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by BetterLuck View Post
fiddle jungle is not viable right.

somehow i have a 7-1 record with him in ranked.

the jungle gold may be about right but it needs to give more xp,
throw a passive onto the smite mastery that you gain an extra 5% xp *or 4* from jungle creeps.
Grats on thinking your 8 game sampling represents anything much less competitive play.


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iainB85

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by vortical42 View Post
I've been trying to figure out why playing jungle felt so wonky for most of season two. The OP nailed the issue, item dependent jungler just can't keep up in the current meta. I saw the effect first hand, maining Nocture in the jungle. Pre jungle nerf, jungle nocture was hard, but when you got it right he could be scary at every stage of the game. Post nerf the jungle clear got easier but there was a really nasty limbo zone after the first full clear. Supposedly the new jungle would provide more opportunities to gank. In reality, clearing your jungle didn't provide even close to enough gold to afford that first 'core' item. It left a carry nocturne with the choice between a gank or invade with a gimped equipment set or sitting around waiting for the camps to respawn. All that was before the lanes figured out that they could steal jungle to make up for their own lack of farm.
You got it. Keep coming back to the thread until we get some kind of response!


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EugenidesAttolis

Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by iainB85 View Post
I hear what you are saying, but I don't quite agree. All your examples say putting this champion in this lane... well, lanes are different because you have another person in the lane the entire time trying to make your life miserable. Ashe would get just as much gold top lane as she would bottom lane, pending she didn't die or get harassed by another champion. All lanes have the same amount of minions and gold.

The jungle, however, is currently balanced in a way that the experience and gold someone will get for consistently clearing the jungle will still put them significantly behind in levels and gold compared to someone in a lane. Because of this, the only safe and viable champions to send into the jungle are "support" type champions that have a kit that needs little to no farm to be effective.

This is a strait up balance issue. It's not as complicated as lane match ups and who to send where. It's just a strait up gold and experience deficiency, that the jungler currently can't do anything about without upsetting one of his team mates and leaching off of their lane.
A shift in game mechanics doesn't fundamentally address the complaint though. The complaint is that a subset of characters excels at a given role. The jungle is less rewarding in gold and exp because its safer. Thetes not someone in your face. Lets examine alternatives

1) Jungle gold/exp increase to match lanes. Literally nothing has changed. Laners will still grab camps to secure an edge over their opponents, and the best junglers will still be those who can maximize value on minimum resources.

2) Thejungle is radically altered to favor assassins instead ofutility junglers. How is this different? We replace Role A and Champion Subset A to Role B and Champion Subset B.

The meta can change, but it doesn't shift the idea that certain champs will be favored for certain roles. shifting who best fits where doesn't alter that there will always be an optimum set of choices, and everyone else.


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iainB85

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by EugenidesAttolis View Post
A shift in game mechanics doesn't fundamentally address the complaint though. The complaint is that a subset of characters excels at a given role. The jungle is less rewarding in gold and exp because its safer. Thetes not someone in your face. Lets examine alternatives

1) Jungle gold/exp increase to match lanes. Literally nothing has changed. Laners will still grab camps to secure an edge over their opponents, and the best junglers will still be those who can maximize value on minimum resources.

2) Thejungle is radically altered to favor assassins instead ofutility junglers. How is this different? We replace Role A and Champion Subset A to Role B and Champion Subset B.

The meta can change, but it doesn't shift the idea that certain champs will be favored for certain roles. shifting who best fits where doesn't alter that there will always be an optimum set of choices, and everyone else.
So in your mind there are only two scenarios... it's completely black and white... either the jungle is good for support kit champions, or it's good for assassin type champions. You see no middle ground where the reward for jungling could be balanced to accommodate both play styles?

Pretty narrow minded view if you ask me. I whole heartedly believe that with the right changes to masteries and items, both could be 100% viable and the jungler could actually pick what they wanted to do without severely hurting their chances of winning, rather than being forced into one play style.


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PapaShongo53

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuther View Post
I'm not disagreeing with them, I'm disagreeing with your wording. You stated gankers need to be given some edge over the supporters, but the distinction you state is not always true.
My reasoning is this:

You have two junglers, lets say Amumu and Kahz'ix

In order to be a funcitonning member of the team, Amumu needs to be able to land Q, hit R and not die in 2 seconds.

Khaz'ix needs to get to the carries and kill them before they kill his team.

In order to be able to do this, Amumu needs defense, Khaz'ix offense. Amumu can get his defense from HoG, Aegis and a vest/neg cloak. Khaz needs a brutalizer and a BF item.

To get gold, both of them have the jungle, ganks and GP/10 items. Amumu is effective with just his GP/10, while Khaz is terrible with them.

In order to be effective, Khaz needs to get gold, and he does this through ganks. He not only needs the ganks, but he needs to get the kill also. If these ganks fail or he just gets assists, he can't do his job.

If Amumu fails ganks or just gets assists, he is getting more money than Khaz and is still able to effectively do his job.

If you make an item that gives health or damage and bonus gold from smite, both of them will build this. This still puts Amumu in a better situation because he still has those other GP/10s, this new item and his kit. It helps Khaz, but it helps everyone else the same, so relative power stays the same.


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RawrWill

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Member

10-15-2012

This image is an interesting example, Ali has more kills and same assists and more cs yet the least gold..

http://i.imgur.com/Ec6X5.jpg


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EugenidesAttolis

Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by iainB85 View Post
So in your mind there are only two scenarios... it's completely black and white... either the jungle is good for support kit champions, or it's good for assassin type champions. You see no middle ground where the reward for jungling could be balanced to accommodate both play styles?

Pretty narrow minded view if you ask me. I whole heartedly believe that with the right changes to masteries and items, both could be 100% viable and the jungler could actually pick what they wanted to do without severely hurting their chances of winning, rather than being forced into one play style.
Then by the same token its narrow minded that adc and support pair off or that supports play on a zero CS meta or that al carries go mid. You can choose not to do these things and that's fine, but fundamentally all the OP does is affirm that at the highest levels of play, there exists a metagame. You don't have to adhere to it, and you can change the specifics of that metagame by altering mechanics or rules, but there will always be subsets of champions that fit optimally into given roles.

Going back to my football example, its like complaining that five men do nothing but push people away from the QB. You don't have to like that role, nor the ideal 350 pound man that fills it, but as long as that job generates optimum results in completing team objectives, that's how pros will play.

you can alter the rules so that its not the ideal (hell its possible to make ADC the favored jungling role technically speaking) but there will always exist optimal choices and not optimal choices, and just because the current optimum isn't your favorite doesn't mean changing it makes it better, or all that different.


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dunkmaster ep

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Hi, my name is Lee Sin.

And I am a Bruiser, Assassin, Support, Tanky, Counter jungling, sustained jungler that snowballs effectively and can otherwise be effective with extremely tanky builds or extremely strong damage builds dependent on the game and situation.

You seem to have forgotten about me. Plz remember, Lee Sin 4 life.