Jungle is almost as bad as support now...

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EugenidesAttolis

Member

10-15-2012

All this post does is affirm that at high levels of play, there exists an optimum efficiency metagame. That isn't bad, it's just professional practice for anything played at a competitive level. It's like asking why you always stick 3 players in the outfield while playing baseball. Or why every professional American football team spends five of it's available eleven players protecting the guy that gets the ball.

It's the most efficient choice to acquire optimum results is why.

Let me phrase it this another way. The question the OP asks can, at a fundamental level be broken down as such: "Why isn't Soandso(We'll say Fiddlesticks) viable in the jungle?"

Structurally, this is identical to asking: "Why isn't Soandso (We'll say Ashe) viable toplane?"

Because it just isn't the optimum efficiency choice. That's why. Top laners in competitive play tend to be tougher bruisers that can survive isolation. AP carries head mid because their kits are usually specialized in killing enemy champions, so they get placed in an area of the map that gives them maximum access to go find enemy champions to kill. Each of these roles is filled by a specific subset of champions.

You don't send Ashe top because she's not tough enough to survive on her own. You don't send a bruiser up the middle because they usually don't have burst damage kits that can capitalize on the mid lane's ability to roam. They're not necessarily wrong choices, but from a pro player's perspective, they aren't the most efficient choices. Why is it any surprise that given that every other lane is filled by specialized subsets of characters that the jungle should be any different? Even assuming their laners don't take camps, junglers have to survive on lower gold totals than their laning counterparts, so it makes sense to choose characters that can maximize their value to their team without high gold totals.


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Kaiserigen

Senior Member

10-15-2012

woot, jungling affects a lot of the game. You are sayin that playing tanky-support like junglers isn't fun? I don't agree with you from the begining, and there are a lot of options for jungling.
Now, i don't know why you all say Nocturne isn't viable anymore, diamonprox is still picking him, and for me is a great champ with good early damage and tankyness at late. I'm playin' more Skarner and Maokai nowadays but cause i think they are funnier.
Ah, i my low elo there is a lot of jax jungler, and i've seen annie jungler (!!!??!!!)!)!)!)


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BetterLuck

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by iainB85 View Post
Yea I talked about something like that earlier in the thread. Not that exact idea, but the idea of more itemization for junglers that make the jungle more profitable to them, to cut down on the current meta of lanes taking as much of the jungle as they can to get ahead. Might edit my OP to have that idea in it, kinda like it.
you mean wriggles.. *i know thats not what you mean trolol*


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Kaiserigen

Senior Member

10-15-2012

"i don't jungle. i have never liked it, and i dont think i ever will. i think the jungle is starting to really ****ing suck though, and i cant imagine why people want to play it anymore. the current 'jungling' is moving more and more towards the 'roaming' tactic of early last year."

And the roaming thing sucks? Why? Lee Sin solo top builds tanky too, just a wriggle's. If you want to go full AD Nocturne for example you can try and succed.


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BetterLuck

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by EugenidesAttolis View Post
All this post does is affirm that at high levels of play, there exists an optimum efficiency metagame. That isn't bad, it's just professional practice for anything played at a competitive level. It's like asking why you always stick 3 players in the outfield while playing baseball. Or why every professional American football team spends five of it's available eleven players protecting the guy that gets the ball.

It's the most efficient choice to acquire optimum results is why.

Let me phrase it this another way. The question the OP asks can, at a fundamental level be broken down as such: "Why isn't Soandso(We'll say Fiddlesticks) viable in the jungle?"

Structurally, this is identical to asking: "Why isn't Soandso (We'll say Ashe) viable toplane?"

Because it just isn't the optimum efficiency choice. That's why. Top laners in competitive play tend to be tougher bruisers that can survive isolation. AP carries head mid because their kits are usually specialized in killing enemy champions, so they get placed in an area of the map that gives them maximum access to go find enemy champions to kill. Each of these roles is filled by a specific subset of champions.

You don't send Ashe top because she's not tough enough to survive on her own. You don't send a bruiser up the middle because they usually don't have burst damage kits that can capitalize on the mid lane's ability to roam. They're not necessarily wrong choices, but from a pro player's perspective, they aren't the most efficient choices. Why is it any surprise that given that every other lane is filled by specialized subsets of characters that the jungle should be any different? Even assuming their laners don't take camps, junglers have to survive on lower gold totals than their laning counterparts, so it makes sense to choose characters that can maximize their value to their team without high gold totals.
fiddle jungle is not viable right.

somehow i have a 7-1 record with him in ranked.

the jungle gold may be about right but it needs to give more xp,
throw a passive onto the smite mastery that you gain an extra 5% xp *or 4* from jungle creeps.


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iainB85

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by EugenidesAttolis View Post
All this post does is affirm that at high levels of play, there exists an optimum efficiency metagame. That isn't bad, it's just professional practice for anything played at a competitive level. It's like asking why you always stick 3 players in the outfield while playing baseball. Or why every professional American football team spends five of it's available eleven players protecting the guy that gets the ball.

It's the most efficient choice to acquire optimum results is why.

Let me phrase it this another way. The question the OP asks can, at a fundamental level be broken down as such: "Why isn't Soandso(We'll say Fiddlesticks) viable in the jungle?"

Structurally, this is identical to asking: "Why isn't Soandso (We'll say Ashe) viable toplane?"

Because it just isn't the optimum efficiency choice. That's why. Top laners in competitive play tend to be tougher bruisers that can survive isolation. AP carries head mid because their kits are usually specialized in killing enemy champions, so they get placed in an area of the map that gives them maximum access to go find enemy champions to kill. Each of these roles is filled by a specific subset of champions.

You don't send Ashe top because she's not tough enough to survive on her own. You don't send a bruiser up the middle because they usually don't have burst damage kits that can capitalize on the mid lane's ability to roam. They're not necessarily wrong choices, but from a pro player's perspective, they aren't the most efficient choices. Why is it any surprise that given that every other lane is filled by specialized subsets of characters that the jungle should be any different? Even assuming their laners don't take camps, junglers have to survive on lower gold totals than their laning counterparts, so it makes sense to choose characters that can maximize their value to their team without high gold totals.
I hear what you are saying, but I don't quite agree. All your examples say putting this champion in this lane... well, lanes are different because you have another person in the lane the entire time trying to make your life miserable. Ashe would get just as much gold top lane as she would bottom lane, pending she didn't die or get harassed by another champion. All lanes have the same amount of minions and gold.

The jungle, however, is currently balanced in a way that the experience and gold someone will get for consistently clearing the jungle will still put them significantly behind in levels and gold compared to someone in a lane. Because of this, the only safe and viable champions to send into the jungle are "support" type champions that have a kit that needs little to no farm to be effective.

This is a strait up balance issue. It's not as complicated as lane match ups and who to send where. It's just a strait up gold and experience deficiency, that the jungler currently can't do anything about without upsetting one of his team mates and leaching off of their lane.


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iainB85

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by BetterLuck View Post
fiddle jungle is not viable right.

somehow i have a 7-1 record with him in ranked.

the jungle gold may be about right but it needs to give more xp,
throw a passive onto the smite mastery that you gain an extra 5% xp *or 4* from jungle creeps.
I'm sorry but if you honestly think an 8 game sample of you playing one champion determines a champion's viability you need get over yourself.


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Esarius

Senior Member

10-15-2012

I don't get it. Is support really that bad, that when you start to see more support players and less jungle players, the fault lies in the games?

Support it fun and there's a lot of support players. It's always been like this. Just because there was a dark age of supporting where people didn't want to support because they were all nerfed to near uselessness or healbotting doesn't mean that the people stopped liking support.

The logic in OP is so messed up.


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iainB85

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esarius View Post
I don't get it. Is support really that bad, that when you start to see more support players and less jungle players, the fault lies in the games?

Support it fun and there's a lot of support players. It's always been like this. Just because there was a dark age of supporting where people didn't want to support because they were all nerfed to near uselessness or healbotting doesn't mean that the people stopped liking support.

The logic in OP is so messed up.
The logic is that support has always been a gold starved role in league of legends, as they aren't allowed to get any farm. This means support champions have always been champions who have kits that are useful with little to no farm. With the jungle in the state it is now, it's a very similar problem, where the only viable junglers are champions who have kits that don't need a lot of farm.

As a result, both roles are pigeon holed into a few champion selection because of this. Solving the 0 farm support is pretty complicated, but balancing out the jungle / jungle items is much easier to fix to make the pool of viable jungle champions much larger and dynamic.


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Kaiserigen

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
. Currently there are 2 enjoyable lanes, being mid lane and top lane cause they have the least amount of responsibility.
You like having less responsibility? That's subjetctiveeee