Jungle is almost as bad as support now...

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Subdue

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Senior Member

10-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TehPumpkin View Post
You get less xp and -significantly- less gold.

It's not as effect in low elo. People ping and ping spam alot if they run into an enemy jungler. It's the most pinged player in the game.
Low Elo players are much slower to respond to jungle invades. The amount of pings you spam does not change that. A player who knows how to invade correctly has a much easier time doing so in Low Elo than they do in High Elo.

Quote:
High ELO play is such a small minority should we even consider it when we discuss issues? (Serious question)
Proper game balance needs to be focused around what good players are capable of doing with them, not on what scrubs are capable of doing with them against other scrubs. Anything other than that and you get overall game imbalance.

Quote:
Counter jungling, by your definition, is to take enemy jungle whenever they go to gank which is directly conflicting one of your earlier statements regarding "sitting in jungle farming all day".. In order to maintain gold income onpar with other solo lanes we must do this AND gank. So every camp that comes up we -have- to be at it on time, every time enemy jungler enters a lane we -have- to be at the spawned camps on time..
You need to go reread the post you're referring to. The point of that post was not that counter junglers sit in the jungle and farm all day, but that if you have two junglers who are both simply farming their own jungle, obviously the jungler who is building Gp10 will come out with an advantage. However, when a jungler with a faster clear takes the initiative to counter jungle, they can and do nullify the advantage created by the Gp10.

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You keep throwing the word "Counter Jungling" and "Counter Jungler" around and yet I'm not convinced anybody even understands the terminology. Is it taking all of the enemy jungle or is it following the enemy jungler around each time he enters a lane so as to counter-gank?
I defined this for you in a previous post as I could tell you were having trouble wrapping your mind around the concept. I'll quote that for you here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominatius Maxim View Post
Level 2 invades are not that uncommon. They're effective in tournament play, in high Elo play, and they're especially effective in low Elo because players don't collapse nearly as fast as they need to in order to defend against it. However, a simple level 2 invade isn't really the essence of counter jungling. Counter jungling is systematic control of the opponent's jungle such that each time they appear on the map to gank they give up parts of their jungle.
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You can't define "Counter Jungling" as maintaing control of buffs, enemy buffs, and dragon because you've already said "Counter Junglers" do this role best so I'm guessing you're referring to Support Junglers. Because by all means with CC and team in this meta, they do this much better. Their gp10's allow them to afford wards as they jungle and gank as well. Not to mention have you ever gone for wriggles/oracle on an item reliant AD jungler? You put yourself tremendously behind if you don't get about 3/wards a min.(75g a minute). And at that point you're hoping for it to pay for itself in about 5minutes of jungling.. 5 minutes of probably not wanting to gank because you aren't a tank, you're a damage dealer. When you gank, you want to garuntee either farm for yourself or a kill... Or assist if it's botlane.
Yea, I'm not going over this with you in detail again. Control of buffs is DIRECTLY related to how fast a champion can clear those buffs. If you want to go and time their buff clears, be my guest.

Riot's adjustments to the jungle last year were great. They made the jungler role more active and created interactions between players that were not there before. It does not take any skill to sit in the jungle and farm it.


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iainB85

Senior Member

10-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogacon View Post
I disagree with this thread. These are my two main roles. Jungling is about controlling the map, and getting your other lanes kills and ahead. Also, your statement about support having more gold is false. I always finish my jungle games with more gold than the support.
Actually it's not false at all, I do it all the time, maybe you just haven't played with a support running GP5 runes.


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iainB85

Senior Member

10-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominatius Maxim View Post
Riot's adjustments to the jungle last year were great. They made the jungler role more active and created interactions between players that were not there before. It does not take any skill to sit in the jungle and farm it.
I still respectfully disagree. Counter jungling is an all or nothing strategy. If you pick someone like Shyvanna with the intent to counter jungle, and the other team reacts properly and shuts you down, guess what? You are now 100% worthless the rest of the game.

Mean while, the GP/10 jungles like Amumu and Nautilius don't care they lost a few camps, because they are still going to wreck havoc late game team fights with their awesome CC kits.

I don't get how you still don't understand why that simply truth makes the current jungle design boring as hell. It promotes a safe GP/10 jungle CC bot / support style over any kind of aggression.


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Extra Lunatic

Senior Member

10-05-2012

B-B-But what a-b-bout my friend F-Fidlestick?

Edit: In all seriousness I have to agree with the OP. The jungle is just not what it used to be. Did anyone talk about how RIOT decided to buff the EXP gain on dual lane to actually give more viability to a duo top lane meta too?


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Vuther

Senior Member

10-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominatius Maxim View Post
Riot's adjustments to the jungle last year were great. They made the jungler role more active and created interactions between players that were not there before. It does not take any skill to sit in the jungle and farm it.
Well, to be fair, you never could really do that in the old jungle because they respawned slower, so jungling was "clear/counter-jungle, gank" then with the large lull between the respawns.


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TehPumpkin

Senior Member

10-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominatius Maxim View Post
Low Elo players are much slower to respond to jungle invades. The amount of pings you spam does not change that. A player who knows how to invade correctly has a much easier time doing so in Low Elo than they do in High Elo.



Proper game balance needs to be focused around what good players are capable of doing with them, not on what scrubs are capable of doing with them against other scrubs. Anything other than that and you get overall game imbalance.



You need to go reread the post you're referring to. The point of that post was not that counter junglers sit in the jungle and farm all day, but that if you have two junglers who are both simply farming their own jungle, obviously the jungler who is building Gp10 will come out with an advantage. However, when a jungler with a faster clear takes the initiative to counter jungle, they can and do nullify the advantage created by the Gp10.



I defined this for you in a previous post as I could tell you were having trouble wrapping your mind around the concept. I'll quote that for you here:





Yea, I'm not going over this with you in detail again. Control of buffs is DIRECTLY related to how fast a champion can clear those buffs. If you want to go and time their buff clears, be my guest.

Riot's adjustments to the jungle last year were great. They made the jungler role more active and created interactions between players that were not there before. It does not take any skill to sit in the jungle and farm it.

Alright then let's play this game again, Domiscrub.

Quote:
Counter jungling is systematic control of the opponent's jungle such that each time they appear on the map to gank they give up parts of their jungle.


So a support jungler is the counter jungler and item reliant AD junglers are... obsolete. I'm sorry but the point still stands that these gp10 support junglers whom scale so much better without items are infact able to stop most intrudes on their jungle AND because of the less effort required in the jungle itself and still maintained farm/income, they can afford more wards, oracles, and overall map control.

Point invalidated and turned around AND you even prove even more why the jungle needs a fix.

Quote:
Control of buffs is DIRECTLY related to how fast a champion can clear those buffs. If you want to go and time their buff clears, be my guest.

Riot's adjustments to the jungle last year were great. They made the jungler role more active and created interactions between players that were not there before. It does not take any skill to sit in the jungle and farm it.
Control of buffs is DIRECTLY related to income for oracles/wards and ganking. What crack did you smoke before you wrote this?

They made the jungler role more support orientated and made jungler champs which CANNOT in ANYWAY be efficient in laning with this meta.. So they basicly nerfed a jungle, buffed support type tanks, AND made numerous champions obsolete..

But this is a good thing right? Warwick farming to 6 to go gank was *slap wrist* naughty.. He should be running around pre6 with no gap closer or speed boost and a dead give-away passive ability being his only way of closing a gap.. But instead of reworking champions like Maokai and Amumu to be stronger in the jungling portion so they could clear camps, they go and mess up several parts of the game, creating a new meta, and making it not only so a new meta exists but also making it impossible for previous junglers to come back into the game.

You're an idiot and every post you make proves it more and more. At first, I thought you were serious.. Now I'm not sure if trolling.

For sake of people taking time to read our banter, however:
Quote:
However, when a jungler with a faster clear takes the initiative to counter jungle, they can and do nullify the advantage created by the Gp10.
No, because the jungler without enough gold income from 1 jungling portion to afford wards for BOTH his jungle entrance AND key parts of the enemy jungle AND an oracle because they are trying to afford the AD-items they so desperately need to be viable in early-mid-late game(That's all 3 parts btw) can't keep eyes out on the enemies jungle. Every single time you leave your jungle, since we should base this off High ELO play as you so "cleverly" point out, you will be and probably are spotted. They know. They know where you're headed.

The ad warwick is trying to rush wriggles so he can remain viable in farming speed. But skarner has HoG and an oracle with t1 boots.. guess whos wards are getting destroyed? Guess who can't "punish gp10 user" right now without just straight getting swarmed? Guess who is now going to be an unreliable farmer/mid game participant because they're forced to build either gp10 or just straight grab an oracle and now remain permanently behind?

Your points are completely invalid because you never take into consideration the one thing I keep making you scream when you read. ITEM RELIANT.

ITEM RELIANT

ITEM RELIANT

ORACLE SCREWS THEM

WARDS COST $$$

ITEM RELIANT

WRIGGLES IS NEEDED FOR CLEAR TIMES

ITEM RELIANT

AD CHAMPION, NOT TANK

ITEM RELIANT


Maybe now you get it. I sure hope so because I'm definitely done trying to explain it to you, you fail to comprehend the issue.


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Extra Lunatic

Senior Member

10-05-2012

Anyway, bump for red post. The current gp5 meta is boring but I'm pretty sure they talked about doing something about 0 cs champs. Maybe some jungle goodness who knows. They can't actually make the jungle worse now can they?


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Subdue

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-05-2012

@iainB85

In a situation where the enemy team is reacting correctly to being counter-jungled, it then becomes your team's responsibility to also react correctly. For example, when I'm about to invade and the any jungler is not visible, I tell the closest lane to push hard, so that their laning opponent will be pinned to the turret. If the enemy jungler attempts a gank at that point, I'll be close enough to respond to it, but more importantly, if the enemy jungler finds me in the jungle, that lane will be able to aid me quickly.

The current jungle creates more interaction between players. Remember that farming jungle creeps is not a skill-involved endeavor. Ganking and counter jungling, which the new jungle creates incentive for, are skill-involved endeavors. Gone are the days where a jungler just sits in his jungle for the entirety of the laning phase without running into a single enemy, and it's more fun that way.

@Vuther

In the old jungle, every single jungler did the same exact route every single time. There was no way to do anything different, and anything different would set you behind. It was always blue, wolves, wraiths, red, golems, back. You'd then be able to attempt one gank, and then it's back to the route. Any deviations from this would immediately set you behind, due to the long respawn times on the jungle. How fun is it when every lane knows where you're going to be and what time you're going to be there for the first 15 minutes of the game?

@TehPumpkin

The typical support junglers (Amumu, Nautilus, Alistar, etc) are rarely able to counter jungle against the common counter junglers (Nocturne, Shyvana, Udyr, Nunu) because these champions clear camps much faster and duel much better. Running into them in the jungle while trying to steal a buff is very dangerous, especially given the slow buff clear.

Again to clarify that in case you missed it: to be a strong counter jungler a champion must have 1) fast camp clear, 2) strong dueling ability, both things that most support junglers lack.

Furthermore, counter-junglers are not reliant on wriggles to achieve their fast clear times. Udyr doesn't even build wriggles when he's going Phoenix. Shyvana clears faster than any of the common support junglers long before her wriggles is even completed.

Finally, I agree that Warwick is not good in the current jungle, but that has nothing to do with Gp10 and everything to do with Warwick's skillset. What made Warwick so strong in the old jungle is his massive sustain. The old jungle creeps were much stronger, and very few champions could complete the early clears with a high health bar. With his massive sustain, Warwick was able to do just that, and then wander into the enemy jungle and pick off the low health enemy jungler. The new jungle, with it's weaker jungle creeps, allows a lot more junglers to achieve high hp clears. While Warwick still clears with high HP, he's unable to pick off the enemy jungler anymore. Furthermore, his damage is very low, making his clear slower than even the common support junglers. For that reason, he's not a good choice for the argument you're trying to make. His issues have nothing to do with the availability of gold and everything to do with having a skill set that is simply not optimal for jungling.

Here are the picks and bans from yesterday's world championship games:

http://leaguepedia.com/wiki/Season_2...Picks_and_Bans

Note how often these non-support style junglers are getting picked even in the most competitive environment. How can you argue they're not viable when they're being picked even at that level of play?

Edit:

With regards to your item reliant comment spam:

Gp10 items give 5 gold every 10 seconds. That's 30 gold per minute. That means to gather up enough gold for an oracle, the Gp10 must be active for 13 minutes and 20 seconds. If you estimate a support jungler gets his first Gp10 item at about 6 minutes, that's basically 20 minutes into the game before a support jungler manages to get oracles due to his Gp10 advantage.

On the other hand, stealing wraiths, which gives as you pointed out about 50 gold on a 50 second respawn gives 400 gold in about 8 minutes. Stealing bigger things give bigger gold as well.


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TehPumpkin

Senior Member

10-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominatius Maxim View Post
@TehPumpkin

Note how often these non-support style junglers are getting picked even in the most competitive environment. How can you argue they're not viable when they're being picked even at that level of play?

Edit:

With regards to your item reliant comment spam:

Gp10 items give 5 gold every 10 seconds. That's 30 gold per minute. That means to gather up enough gold for an oracle, the Gp10 must be active for 13 minutes and 20 seconds. If you estimate a support jungler gets his first Gp10 item at about 6 minutes, that's basically 20 minutes into the game before a support jungler manages to get oracles due to his Gp10 advantage.

On the other hand, stealing wraiths, which gives as you pointed out about 50 gold on a 50 second respawn gives 400 gold in about 8 minutes. Stealing bigger things give bigger gold as well.
Firstly: 1v1 jungler duels are extreamly rare. If they meet, one runs and one doesn't. Or if they both commit, it's garunteed one side has people collapsing. Taking enemy jungle used to be extreamly risky because you should take the entire camp.. Now you just kill 1 mob and gain a huge gold benefit.

Sounds legit /sarcasm.

Secondly in regards to pick n bans.

Nocturne picked how many times? Where's rammus? Where's shaco? Where's Nasus? Where's the other 20 flipping junglers? Kthnx. I see maokai, skarner, shen, lee sin, and shyvana being the primary picks.. Also please note that these champs are built as supports or tanky initiaters or bruisers. Kthnx again.

Thirdly in regards to your edit:

Thanks for proving our point that the jungle needs a change. Read what you typed and you see the issue. Thanks again!


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iainB85

Senior Member

10-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominatius Maxim View Post
@iainB85

In a situation where the enemy team is reacting correctly to being counter-jungled, it then becomes your team's responsibility to also react correctly. For example, when I'm about to invade and the any jungler is not visible, I tell the closest lane to push hard, so that their laning opponent will be pinned to the turret. If the enemy jungler attempts a gank at that point, I'll be close enough to respond to it, but more importantly, if the enemy jungler finds me in the jungle, that lane will be able to aid me quickly.

The current jungle creates more interaction between players. Remember that farming jungle creeps is not a skill-involved endeavor. Ganking and counter jungling, which the new jungle creates incentive for, are skill-involved endeavors. Gone are the days where a jungler just sits in his jungle for the entirety of the laning phase without running into a single enemy, and it's more fun that way.
You still said nothing to disprove my statement that passive GP/10 jungling is the safest and most obvious choice. You say counter jungling is a viable way to shut it down, yet now you admit that your team actually has to pay attention and assist you correctly... even more factors that can go wrong, where as playing the above mentioned means you will be useful 100% of the time... the reward for the massive risk it is still just isn't there with the current jungle.