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Jungle is almost as bad as support now...

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Bittlez

Senior Member

10-05-2012

Quote:
Dominatius Maxim:
Your entire argument rests on support junglers clearing as fast as non-support junglers. My challenge to you is this: Go into a custom game as Maokai and farm both sides of the jungle for 10 minutes. Then do the same the same thing with Shyvana. Use the standard builds for both. Post the lolreplay for both.


Wrong again.


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Bittlez

Senior Member

10-05-2012

Since you feel like my entire argument is "same clear speed" which it is not, I'll point out your own statement of respawn timers on creep camp... and how clearing faster means nothing since respawn timers are the same either way. Also should I note that between respawn times both junglers are going to enemy jungle/lanes for ganks?

So the 5 to 10 seconds difference is negligible because they've respawned already and have been respawned for a few seconds before you are able to return to them.

You're not really 1700 are you?


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Subdue

Senior Member

10-05-2012

Quote:
TehPumpkin:
Since you feel like my entire argument is "same clear speed" which it is not, I'll point out your own statement of respawn timers on creep camp... and how clearing faster means nothing since respawn timers are the same either way. Also should I note that between respawn times both junglers are going to enemy jungle/lanes for ganks?

So the 5 to 10 seconds difference is negligible because they've respawned already and have been respawned for a few seconds before you are able to return to them.

You're not really 1700 are you?


The clear speed matters because you enter the enemy's jungle and kill his creeps before he gets to them. Is the concept really that difficult?


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Bittlez

Senior Member

10-05-2012

Quote:
Dominatius Maxim:
The clear speed matters because you enter the enemy's jungle and kill his creeps before he gets to them. Is the concept really that difficult?


So going into the enemy jungle at lvl 2 is a smart idea when you know for a fact he hasn't reached the camp and is on his way?

If he's not on the minimap and you don't know where he is, counter jungling anything but wraiths is beyond risky.

What are you trying to say? Jungle is 100% fine because you can walk over and get a 47gold wraith jack from them? Well now you just boned the guy over there, grats... The problem is now even MORE apparent to the guy who's wraith you just jacked.

He now gets 12gold from that camp. The problem is still there.

Is THAT concept so hard to understand?


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Subdue

Senior Member

10-05-2012

Quote:
TehPumpkin:
So going into the enemy jungle at lvl 2 is a smart idea when you know for a fact he hasn't reached the camp and is on his way?

If he's not on the minimap and you don't know where he is, counter jungling anything but wraiths is beyond risky.

What are you trying to say? Jungle is 100% fine because you can walk over and get a 47gold wraith jack from them? Well now you just boned the guy over there, grats... The problem is now even MORE apparent to the guy who's wraith you just jacked.

He now gets 12gold from that camp. The problem is still there.

Is THAT concept so hard to understand?


Level 2 invades are not that uncommon. They're effective in tournament play, in high Elo play, and they're especially effective in low Elo because players don't collapse nearly as fast as they need to in order to defend against it. However, a simple level 2 invade isn't really the essence of counter jungling. Counter jungling is systematic control of the opponent's jungle such that each time they appear on the map to gank they give up parts of their jungle.


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holy knightmare

Senior Member

10-05-2012

I also think riot needs to do something with the jungle.


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Para

Senior Member

10-05-2012

I think the other part of junglers is that 80% of players who play jungle don't know how to play jungle. They lack map awareness, timers, sense of when to gank, patience to gank etc.


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7 White Dreams

Senior Member

10-05-2012

Junglers role now is essentially giving a solo lane to mid and top so they get more xp faster while they punish anyone who overextends without warding and have control over objectives. The gap between a bad jungler and a good jungler is huge. I like playing top and while I dominated my lane opponent, I am sometimes forced to play passive because of jungler camping my lane. So basically that's what they do, they roam around the map, put some pressure just by their presence and then in lategame are only useful if, as you said, smth like nautilus, maokai, amumu, etc.

Having said this, I'd love to see some changes in the jungle. If riot doesn't have anything in mind, at least make jungle creeps to give a little bit more gold


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Runelord666

Senior Member

10-05-2012

I hate jungleing and hate if i get pidgeoned hole into it its my weakest game, but my team never budges and pre game explain I suck at jungle, all they do is complain all game about me jungleing even if we win.

So I always ask top/mid/support/adc but not jungle for me.

I think the current meta needs a shift slightly at least do support plus roamer than can assist all lanes help get buffs and isnt yelled out for cs. Had a few games yesterday were we ran 2 top, threw the other team off since its not meta and all the other team did was whine. Flexibility is whats needed not set roles anymore.


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Bittlez

Senior Member

10-05-2012

Quote:
7 White Dreams:
Junglers role now is essentially giving a solo lane to mid and top so they get more xp faster



You get less xp and -significantly- less gold.


Quote:
Dominatius Maxim:
Level 2 invades are not that uncommon. They're effective in tournament play, in high Elo play, and they're especially effective in low Elo because players don't collapse nearly as fast as they need to in order to defend against it. However, a simple level 2 invade isn't really the essence of counter jungling. Counter jungling is systematic control of the opponent's jungle such that each time they appear on the map to gank they give up parts of their jungle.


It's not as effect in low elo. People ping and ping spam alot if they run into an enemy jungler. It's the most pinged player in the game.

Tournament play is not League of Legends. They know eachother's champ preferences before they even enter champion select. Watch the worlds and tell me how often blitz is banned.. They also play 5v5 consistently. Many of these tournament players even say solo/duo que is hard. There's a reason. Yes, 5v5 play is there for normal players and I see it even in normal games, but it's so rare to see in regular league of legends gameplay that I cannot stress enough that Tournament play is not League of Legends. It's a fixed environment with fixed teams with fixed comps. Seen the "cheese" attempt? Only one worked, the 3teleport. Guess what? That's not a new comp, it's been used a lot in normal games by groups of friends.

High ELO play is such a small minority should we even consider it when we discuss issues? (Serious question)

Counter jungling, by your definition, is to take enemy jungle whenever they go to gank which is directly conflicting one of your earlier statements regarding "sitting in jungle farming all day".. In order to maintain gold income onpar with other solo lanes we must do this AND gank. So every camp that comes up we -have- to be at it on time, every time enemy jungler enters a lane we -have- to be at the spawned camps on time..

You keep throwing the word "Counter Jungling" and "Counter Jungler" around and yet I'm not convinced anybody even understands the terminology. Is it taking all of the enemy jungle or is it following the enemy jungler around each time he enters a lane so as to counter-gank?

You can't define "Counter Jungling" as maintaing control of buffs, enemy buffs, and dragon because you've already said "Counter Junglers" do this role best so I'm guessing you're referring to Support Junglers. Because by all means with CC and team in this meta, they do this much better. Their gp10's allow them to afford wards as they jungle and gank as well. Not to mention have you ever gone for wriggles/oracle on an item reliant AD jungler? You put yourself tremendously behind if you don't get about 3/wards a min.(75g a minute). And at that point you're hoping for it to pay for itself in about 5minutes of jungling.. 5 minutes of probably not wanting to gank because you aren't a tank, you're a damage dealer. When you gank, you want to garuntee either farm for yourself or a kill... Or assist if it's botlane.

You're trying to convince me jungling doesn't need fixed but instead convincing me it needs it even more.