Jungle is almost as bad as support now...

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

iainB85

Senior Member

10-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominatius Maxim View Post
Really now. Here is the premise of this entire thread according to you:



I have bolded the core parts of your argument.



Then I bolded the key parts of my post.


You really don't see how gold as a limited resource makes both types of junglers viable - support junglers who build GP10 are viable because they make use of an alternative gold source, counter-junglers are viable because they are able to make use of both sides of the jungle while denying the enemy?

You can't explore the limited availability of gold in the jungle without considering the value and effectiveness of counter jungling.



I have over 150 ranked games played as Amumu, I think I have an idea of how fast his clear speed is. It is noticeably slower than Nunu/Shyvana/Nocturne/Udyr. His wraith/Wolf clear isn't too bad, but his red/blue/double golem/dragon/baron clears are all significantly slower.
Counter jungling is a high risk high reward scenario... I don't think it should be REQUIRED to counter jungle to play an aggressive jungle without falling behind. It should be a good situational strategy, but one jungle should provide an adequate amount.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Subdue

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by iainB85 View Post
Counter jungling is a high risk high reward scenario... I don't think it should be REQUIRED to counter jungle to play an aggressive jungle without falling behind. It should be a good situational strategy, but one jungle should provide an adequate amount.
Sitting in your jungle passively farming is not "aggressive." If all you want to do is farm, you'd be better off playing bot or top, because the jungle is not for you. This isn't Farmville.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

iainB85

Senior Member

10-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominatius Maxim View Post
Sitting in your jungle passively farming is not "aggressive." If all you want to do is farm, you'd be better off playing bot or top, because the jungle is not for you. This isn't Farmville.
I agree you should not just sit in jungle and farm, but I don't think it should also be up to kills in order to stay relevant with a non-support kit. No other player on your team has that liability.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Carnn

Senior Member

10-04-2012

When I think about the number of times I've had a Lee Sin turn to custard after starting so strong because he rushed a Wriggles and his gold stream completely dries up, while their jungler Amumu has had 2-3 gp/10s for the majority of the game and ends up having twice his items by the end of the game.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Subdue

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by iainB85 View Post
I agree you should not just sit in jungle and farm, but I don't think it should also be up to kills in order to stay relevant with a non-support kit. No other player on your team has that liability.
So what exactly do you expect to happen? One player builds Gp10, ganks, and farms their side of the jungler. The other player does not build Gp10, does not gank, and also only farms their side of the jungle. Why should the player who is not ganking as much and not build Gp10 be in an equal position 20 minutes into the game?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

TehPumpkin

Senior Member

10-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominatius Maxim View Post
I am going to have to address this in parts. First of all, there are two ways that a jungler can affect the laning phase.

1. They can gank.
2. They can counter-jungle.

Some junglers are strong gankers but clear their jungler relatively slowly (Amumu, Alistar, Nautilus). These are the junglers you are referring to as supports, and that's basically their role. Some junglers are strong counter-junglers (Shyvana, Nocturne, Nunu, Udyr). These junglers have fast clears and a strong dueling ability. They're able to enter the enemy jungle in relative safety and steal creeps, thus denying the enemy jungler.

You already understand what the support junglers do. They build Gp10 and they gank frequently, clearing their jungle between ganks. However, if you're playing a counter-jungle jungler and you're not counter jungling (clearing only your side of the jungle), of course you are going to be less useful to your team. You're neither applying pressure like your high-gank counterpart, nor are you denying your counterpart and setting them behind.

I play primarily support junglers (Maokai, Amumu, Alistar, Nautilus). The champs that worry me the most when I see them on the other side are Shyvana, Nunu, and Udyr. Why? Because I know if the player on that champ is good, my ganks will have to be absolutely flawless or I'll fall behind in levels and gold very quickly, as they'll be in my jungle taking my creeps all day long. Against one particular Shyvana I actually ended up two levels below our bot lane at 15 minutes in because she consistently beat me to every camp.

Now of course, there are some junglers that are simply weak all around: (Warwick, Master Yi). These champs aren't weak because of the Gp10 issue, but because their ganks aren't strong enough for them to play a high gank role, and their clear isn't fast or safe enough to counter jungle. It's a flaw in their design rather than a flaw in the jungle.

One thing I will note, however, is that counter-jungle junglers are more difficult to play than gank junglers, because you need to be aware not just of what's going on in the lanes, but of where the enemy jungler is, or you can find yourself in a tough situation very quickly. It's often fear of getting caught that keeps players on counter-jungle junglers from jungling effectively.
I'm going to make this awfully simple for you:

Assassin != counter-jungler. Assassin = Benefit of being stronger then a support in 1v1. So yes, in current meta if you're a maokai and I'm a nocturne that just farmed 3 or 4 full waves of lane cs, prepare to get your face torn off.

Also going to make this one awfully painful for you:

Quote:
Now of course, there are some junglers that are simply weak all around: (Warwick, Master Yi). These champs aren't weak because of the Gp10 issue, but because their ganks aren't strong enough for them to play a high gank role,
This is why i downvoted and ignored you. Warwick used to come out the jungle at lvl 6 with a big farm advantage for not ganking pre-6 and in toplane, counter-ganking, he would wreck the face of the other jungler unless said jungler had kills under its belt. Warwick -was- extreamly powerful. Put a red buff, his ult, a witsend+wriggle at 6 and no other jungler could stand toe to toe except maybe nocturne if he managed to shield the ult or someone QSS'd it.

You're trying to explain why these junglers suck booty in the current meta while we are trying to explain why they shouldn't be forced to suck booty.

You either A) never jungled pre-rework and never seen warwick ganks or B) are just trying to be cool and take riot's side.

For the next awfully blunt response to a quote from you since you're SO mad that we downvoted and ignored your awful post.

Quote:
One thing I will note, however, is that counter-jungle junglers are more difficult to play than gank junglers, because you need to be aware not just of what's going on in the lanes, but of where the enemy jungler is
This is the entire reason this thread is here. You cannot be both like you used to. Gank jungler was and should be the same thing as a counter-jungler. As well these two roles should have a third placed in there: Jungle Farmer.

Conclusion:
Gank, Counter, and Farm are all the role a jungler should fill and is why it was so important and fun. You have no idea what you're talking about, therefor downvoted and ignored by most people who are complaining about the issue with the jungle.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

TehPumpkin

Senior Member

10-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominatius Maxim View Post
So what exactly do you expect to happen? One player builds Gp10, ganks, and farms their side of the jungler. The other player does not build Gp10, does not gank, and also only farms their side of the jungle. Why should the player who is not ganking as much and not build Gp10 be in an equal position 20 minutes into the game?
Bad post, downvoted.

Try this comparison:

Support Jungler: Farms with ease, has 3 gp10's, and ganks frequently.
Assassin Jungler: Farms with ease, ganks frequently.

One of those is more reliant on items to make a difference and has to avoid 3 items the other has in order to get those items quickly.

However, due to income in jungle and current meta and the horrible mentality of laners, will never be able to fulfill its role nor make as big of a difference.

The battle is this:
When both junglers enter top at same time for a gank. One brings CC and a good HP pool, the other is bringing Dmg and maybe 1 cc ability.

Why is the support jungler given an advantage? The answer is pretty obvious to us that are complaining, maybe you can sit down and think on it... You might learn something about the game you're playing :/


((For Riot Red Post that is 100% avoiding jungle threads:: Because the dmg dealer jungler can't get income without gp10 and with gp10 cannot get early game items. It's a system that is entirely due to the low income of jungling and the meta where junglers are "only supposed to get assists". The lack of income=No early game items that these types of junglers need. With gp10, they are forced to try and counter a support jungler which scales extreamly well without items(unlike themselves) just to get to late game and make a difference... by then having fallen too far behind and has been ridiculed the entire game due to being very underfarmed and weak in comparison))


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

TehPumpkin

Senior Member

10-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominatius Maxim View Post
Sitting in your jungle passively farming is not "aggressive." If all you want to do is farm, you'd be better off playing bot or top, because the jungle is not for you. This isn't Farmville.
This isn't Supportville either.

If your only argument is "dont sit in jungle all day farming" then I precent to you this:

We are only forced to try and farm all day in jungle because the income is complete **** and the only way to get bonus gold is from assists(due to meta and mentality) which is also complete ****.

Your current jungle is the only reason anyone would sit all day in the jungle farming. Fix the jungle, stfu(since you have NO idea what your talking about, obviously), and go spend about 50 games trying to jungle nocturne. You're not allowed to have gp10's in these 50 games either. I want you to FEEL the issue.


Here's an EDIT as well::Counter-jungling and Jungling and Ganking are all supposed to be in the same role. As it stands, only support junglers can truly fill them all. If a gp10 itemized damage jungler goes counter jungling.. well, guess what, you don't scale for **** without a wriggles early on to 1v1 with.. Somehow these support junglers with Regen+HP+AP gp10's are scaling so much better in these 1v1 'Counter Jungling' scenarios because.. hey.. they are getting the stats they actually need.

Name one +AttackDamage gp10.
Name one +AttackSpeed gp10.
We know there's a +Crit gp10.. Lots of good that does at lvl 4 counter jungling................

^-- Fix the jungle income so item-reliant junglers stand a chance. ITEM RELIANT.

It's like you're completely missing the whole reason the jungle needs fixing.. ITEM RELIANT, ITEM RELIANT, ITEM RELIANT... I placed it in all caps so you scream it in your head as you read it. If these ITEM RELIANT junglers get gp10 hp, regen, or AP(lololol AD with ap gp10) and the support has the same... Oddly enough(no surprise to us however) the support jungler will trade better in 1on1's.. So in all *gasp*ness, in a counter-gank it's the same result. The ITEM RELIANT damager can't bring enough damage in early game ganks to help level the CCvsDamage. Yes, nocturne has a fear. But with a HoG and Philo he's in no way going to output enough damage to make it worthwhile to choose him over someone with a heavier CC.. Because ITEM RELIANT junglers are no longer viable. Gp10 forces them to try and play safe until lategame, forcing laners to just play defensively.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Baalhrezem

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-04-2012

You might get first blue, beyond that you have to give it away.
You get the first couple of reds for ganking, sometimes the second goes to blue-bot or purple-top--beyond that you have to give it away.
You can get some of the little camps, though occasionally mid will steal your wraiths and purple-top blue-bot will steal your double golems.
Unless mid is in absolute farm mode, you can at least get wolves.

You are responsible for the lanes
It's always your fault.
You share a burden of both oracles/aegis between your support.
You have to ward more often than others with the exception of support
Jungle is so cheap you often have to get 2 gp10s just to keep up.

Jungling sucks.

- http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...php?p=29892086

(Thread I made earlier)


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Derivator

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-04-2012

Agree 100%. The junglers now on days are more and more supportish. Shyvana and Lee Sin being one of the few exceptions, and even they have fallen in popularity against the likes of Maokai, Alistar, Skarner and pals.