Jungle is almost as bad as support now...

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Johnnyzao

Junior Member

10-04-2012

Why people thinks the best players are the ones who get the kills? Support junglers are awesome, they do most of the plays. Just look at how Skarner won the game by getting HSGG in the CLGxiG game. None of the roles requires more skill to be played. Kills dont prove your skill, plays do.


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iainB85

Senior Member

10-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnnyzao View Post
Why people thinks the best players are the ones who get the kills? Support junglers are awesome, they do most of the plays. Just look at how Skarner won the game by getting HSGG in the CLGxiG game. None of the roles requires more skill to be played. Kills dont prove your skill, plays do.
Never tried to argue it doesn't take skill, my argument is its the only consistently viable way to play jungle, there are no other options. If the jungle were balanced well, both tanky support jungles and fighter/assassin jungles should be a viable strategy, but that's just currently not true.


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Johnnyzao

Junior Member

10-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by iainB85 View Post
Never tried to argue it doesn't take skill, my argument is its the only consistently viable way to play jungle, there are no other options. If the jungle were balanced well, both tanky support jungles and fighter/assassin jungles should be a viable strategy, but that's just currently not true.
Agreed, some assassins should be viable too. Still, most of people here are QQng cause they dont get kills and get no honor.
Shaco/Nocturne are extremely effective jungler Assassins, take a look at lolking.net, or some pro junglers. Shaco builds mostly AD/GA. And Noc, even if built tanky, wont stop being an assassin, cause his job is to pick people off and snowball of it.

And for last I think, as stated before, its really more about not having any other place for the tanks. If you are not running a Malphite top you are running a dmg dealer bruiser, and your team will need a tank.


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BigNasty321

Senior Member

10-04-2012

i hate jungling


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enrico swagolo

Senior Member

10-04-2012

I tried playing some AP Eve in the jungle, and despite every single gank being successful, you just can't carry hard enough if your team can't take advantage of the ganks. Also, Eve and support-like junglers can be counter-jungled by Shyvana and Lee Sin early, and people are unwilling to wait out for late-game Amumu to win.. because at some point he will become more dangerous than Lee Sin even if counter-jungled. And Eve with even with just DFG is a huge threat.


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Fosterisgod

Senior Member

10-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominatius Maxim View Post
I am going to have to address this in parts. First of all, there are two ways that a jungler can affect the laning phase.

1. They can gank.
2. They can counter-jungle.

Some junglers are strong gankers but clear their jungler relatively slowly (Amumu, Alistar, Nautilus). These are the junglers you are referring to as supports, and that's basically their role. Some junglers are strong counter-junglers (Shyvana, Nocturne, Nunu, Udyr). These junglers have fast clears and a strong dueling ability. They're able to enter the enemy jungle in relative safety and steal creeps, thus denying the enemy jungler.

You already understand what the support junglers do. They build Gp10 and they gank frequently, clearing their jungle between ganks. However, if you're playing a counter-jungle jungler and you're not counter jungling (clearing only your side of the jungle), of course you are going to be less useful to your team. You're neither applying pressure like your high-gank counterpart, nor are you denying your counterpart and setting them behind.

I play primarily support junglers (Maokai, Amumu, Alistar, Nautilus). The champs that worry me the most when I see them on the other side are Shyvana, Nunu, and Udyr. Why? Because I know if the player on that champ is good, my ganks will have to be absolutely flawless or I'll fall behind in levels and gold very quickly, as they'll be in my jungle taking my creeps all day long. Against one particular Shyvana I actually ended up two levels below our bot lane at 15 minutes in because she consistently beat me to every camp.

Now of course, there are some junglers that are simply weak all around: (Warwick, Master Yi). These champs aren't weak because of the Gp10 issue, but because their ganks aren't strong enough for them to play a high gank role, and their clear isn't fast or safe enough to counter jungle. It's a flaw in their design rather than a flaw in the jungle.

One thing I will note, however, is that counter-jungle junglers are more difficult to play than gank junglers, because you need to be aware not just of what's going on in the lanes, but of where the enemy jungler is, or you can find yourself in a tough situation very quickly. It's often fear of getting caught that keeps players on counter-jungle junglers from jungling effectively.

Uhhhhhhhh. Amumu clears his jungle slowly? What? Stopped reading there. Just clueless.


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The Untold

Senior Member

10-04-2012

Solution is to up the money from the jungle and to change blue so it doesn't give midlane enough of an advantage to be useful. Possibly just throw in a talent that gives a GP5 buff upon killing a neutral minion, or make blue give a GP5 buff and all the little camps add time to it.

Getting a game where someone says "taking wraiths/golems/wolves because i need the money to win my lane" is frustrating, I have a friend that does this and if I'm currently in clear mode I yell at him over skype because those 4 minions encompass a much larger amount of my gold then they do his gold. Its why i've initiated a "gank tax".


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Subdue

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Senior Member

10-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by iainB85 View Post
You didn't say anything that counteracted my original post, so I didn't feel the need to respond. All you did was talk about clear times and counter jungling, neither of which addresses the issue I have brought up.
Really now. Here is the premise of this entire thread according to you:

Quote:
Originally Posted by iainB85 View Post
Seriously, I am seeing more people want support than jungle these days, and the reason is obvious in my mind: the most sure fire way to win now is just to make jungle another support.

There's no room assassin/damage dealing type junglers with the current design. The jungle just doesn't provide enough farm compared to lane anymore, and you can't rely on getting lots of kills from ganks early if the enemy team plays smart and/or your team doesn't.

That's also if you even get to clear your own jungle. With how easy the small camps are now, other lanes pretty much demand half your camps to get an edge over their enemy laner... and why shouldn't they, it's a great tactic for them... long as you aren't the poor jungler!

So what does that devolve the jungle into? A tanky support with good initiate and CC. The best jungle picks by far these days are champs like Amumu, Nautilius, Malphite, etc... who can win team fights without any gold at all due to their kits.

I really hope Riot has some plans for jungle in season 3, because I am sure I am not the only one who is flat out sick of this design.

FYI: As support running GP5 runes and building dual GP5 I usually end up with more gold at the end of the game than our jungle, even if they played well and had similar presence (kills/assists)... that's how little the jungle is currently worth... further strengthening my metaphor as jungle the secondary support.

Would love a red post in this thread, even if it's "we're happy with the jungle now" just to see if they agree/disagree with its current state.
I have bolded the core parts of your argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominatius Maxim View Post
I am going to have to address this in parts. First of all, there are two ways that a jungler can affect the laning phase.

1. They can gank.
2. They can counter-jungle.

Some junglers are strong gankers but clear their jungler relatively slowly (Amumu, Alistar, Nautilus). These are the junglers you are referring to as supports, and that's basically their role. Some junglers are strong counter-junglers (Shyvana, Nocturne, Nunu, Udyr). These junglers have fast clears and a strong dueling ability. They're able to enter the enemy jungle in relative safety and steal creeps, thus denying the enemy jungler.

You already understand what the support junglers do. They build Gp10 and they gank frequently, clearing their jungle between ganks. However, if you're playing a counter-jungle jungler and you're not counter jungling (clearing only your side of the jungle), of course you are going to be less useful to your team. You're neither applying pressure like your high-gank counterpart, nor are you denying your counterpart and setting them behind.

I play primarily support junglers (Maokai, Amumu, Alistar, Nautilus). The champs that worry me the most when I see them on the other side are Shyvana, Nunu, and Udyr. Why? Because I know if the player on that champ is good, my ganks will have to be absolutely flawless or I'll fall behind in levels and gold very quickly, as they'll be in my jungle taking my creeps all day long. Against one particular Shyvana I actually ended up two levels below our bot lane at 15 minutes in because she consistently beat me to every camp.

Now of course, there are some junglers that are simply weak all around: (Warwick, Master Yi). These champs aren't weak because of the Gp10 issue, but because their ganks aren't strong enough for them to play a high gank role, and their clear isn't fast or safe enough to counter jungle. It's a flaw in their design rather than a flaw in the jungle.

One thing I will note, however, is that counter-jungle junglers are more difficult to play than gank junglers, because you need to be aware not just of what's going on in the lanes, but of where the enemy jungler is, or you can find yourself in a tough situation very quickly. It's often fear of getting caught that keeps players on counter-jungle junglers from jungling effectively.
Then I bolded the key parts of my post.


You really don't see how gold as a limited resource makes both types of junglers viable - support junglers who build GP10 are viable because they make use of an alternative gold source, counter-junglers are viable because they are able to make use of both sides of the jungle while denying the enemy?

You can't explore the limited availability of gold in the jungle without considering the value and effectiveness of counter jungling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fosterisgod View Post
Uhhhhhhhh. Amumu clears his jungle slowly? What? Stopped reading there. Just clueless.
I have over 150 ranked games played as Amumu, I think I have an idea of how fast his clear speed is. It is noticeably slower than Nunu/Shyvana/Nocturne/Udyr. His wraith/Wolf clear isn't too bad, but his red/blue/double golem/dragon/baron clears are all significantly slower.


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Orisai

Senior Member

10-04-2012

I'm a jungler main and I think thats the exact role that the jungle is, don't like it find a new game. You don't see Stvicious or theoddone complaining. The jungle is fine as is. Keep the qq to yourselves.


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kentuckychicken

Senior Member

10-04-2012

Yes because only support jangolers are viable... u forgot Shyvana/Mundo/Skarner... maybe even assassins such as Rengar/Khazix/Diana ANYONE almost can jangol fairly well some faster some slower.

I personally never play support jangolers, carry jangol all day errday