Kog early build progression.

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Dane Belthound

Senior Member

05-04-2012

I typically do the following:

boot and pots
2 dorans
beserkers
zeal
BF
PD
IE



Sometimes I finish PD before BF.


I know some champs it is better to rush the IE, but am I correct in thinking kog benefits from the increased AS early more than the dmg?


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Warrrrax

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Senior Member

05-04-2012

Ive run the math and it actually is higher DPS to get the Zeal/PD before the BF Sword, due mostly to Kogs big onhit effect.
Plus you benefit quite nicely from the extra movespeed gained early for gank avoiding and helping your jungler to gank.

At level 9, a Kog with rank 5 Barrage is dealing 6% dmg, and vs a typical 1200 health foe you can expect 72 onhit damage, which is already 1 and a half BFSwords worth. That plus 2 dorans and base AD = quite abit of damage to multiply times bonus Attack Speed.


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Amoc

Senior Member

05-04-2012

There is a little more to it than that. I find that if things are going well and I'm already winning the lane, BF is better just to help your farm, which can help feed your build faster.


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Warrrrax

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Senior Member

05-04-2012

I figure that if you are 21 offense (or more), have 2 dorans blades, are level 9ish, then you can probably lasthit pretty well at this point since your AD advances a lot faster than creep health/armor.

Im not sure how a BFSword is going to help you farm more in that case, vs a finished zerker and zeal. Even without Barrage, the zerker/zeal is going to give you similar DPS to a BFSword, so I'd presume farming is the same speed...and faster with barrage activated.


Assume level 9, 75 base AD, 10 from runes, 5 masteries, 20 from 2 dorans. = lets go with 110 AD. Assume Attack Speed of 0.9 due to AS masteries, base, and several levels worth.
BASE DPS of: 110x.9 = 99 normal, 110+60 x 0.9 = 153 Barrage vs 1k health creep/foe.


You can either have a BFSword (1650g) or a Zerker upgrade and zeal (1700ish).

BFSword boosts DPS to = 140 normal, 193 barrage.

Zerker,Zeal boots to = 146 normal DPS, 218 barrage. (plus the extra movespeed!)

0.9 AS + (0.65speedx45%AS) times 110 AD, (10% chance of extra 110% dmg)
== 1.1925 AS times 110AD x 1.11(crit factor)

Barrage DPS of: 146 DPS + 60onhitx1.1925


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Dane Belthound

Senior Member

05-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrrrax View Post
I figure that if you are 21 offense (or more), have 2 dorans blades, are level 9ish, then you can probably lasthit pretty well at this point since your AD advances a lot faster than creep health/armor.

Im not sure how a BFSword is going to help you farm more in that case, vs a finished zerker and zeal. Even without Barrage, the zerker/zeal is going to give you similar DPS to a BFSword, so I'd presume farming is the same speed...and faster with barrage activated.


Assume level 9, 75 base AD, 10 from runes, 5 masteries, 20 from 2 dorans. = lets go with 110 AD. Assume Attack Speed of 0.9 due to AS masteries, base, and several levels worth.
BASE DPS of: 110x.9 = 99 normal, 110+60 x 0.9 = 153 Barrage vs 1k health creep/foe.


You can either have a BFSword (1650g) or a Zerker upgrade and zeal (1700ish).

BFSword boosts DPS to = 140 normal, 193 barrage.

Zerker,Zeal boots to = 146 normal DPS, 218 barrage. (plus the extra movespeed!)

0.9 AS + (0.65speedx45%AS) times 110 AD, (10% chance of extra 110% dmg)
== 1.1925 AS times 110AD x 1.11(crit factor)

Barrage DPS of: 146 DPS + 60onhitx1.1925
Thanks so much. I was pretty sure this was the case I just hadn't done the math yet. I had someone yell at me for going PD before IE in a match and so I was curious. I am pretty sure kog is special and most AD should get a bigger bonus from IE/BF first which might be why I got yelled at.


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Amoc

Senior Member

05-04-2012

Well I think that the zerker upgrade needs to happen first regardless of whether you're building zeal or BF. Personally, I don't like to rush PD on Kog early because so many of the stats on it don't do much early on. The attack speed is the real big thing for Kog, and you don't need to spend nearly 3000 gold to get it. With AD so low, your crits aren't going to be worth much.

I like to build AD first on Kog'Maw, whether with BF or with Wriggle's, because farming with W is a big no-no and BF or Wriggle's will allow you to farm minions safely and sustainably. Kog'Maw isn't an early game champ and, like Vayne, you're only going to get kills with him if your lane opponents are bad or if you're getting great ganks. You need to stay in lane farming as much as you can, and by depending on W to farm you'd be wasting your mana and making yourself vulnerable to harrass, which is counter-productive.

I usually start:
Boots + 3 pots or Doran's Blade --> Wriggle's or Zerker Boots (zerker boots would be next if you start Wriggle's) ---> BF and then either rush IE or build zeal and then complete IE before PD.

This gives you better alpha damage on your harrassment exchanges, better minion farming, more sustainability and allows you to progress more smoothly into the mid game where you can start focusing more on your tank shredding attack speed.


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Warrrrax

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Senior Member

05-04-2012

I think its mostly user preference. Amoc makes a compelling case. Though I think I've shown that it is not idiocy to get the Zeal/PD first.

He's right that the crit on Zeal as useful early on, although crit DOES hit cost-effectiveness with AD at 125 AD. [math: At 125AD, a 1% crit is basically giving you 1.25 AD worth of value or 40x1.25 = 50g which is the price of crit]. And you aren't THAT far off from 125 AD by level 9. And of course it becomes more useful as the game progresses.

By the time you get a PD, surely you are at 125 AD right? Your base AD will be 85ish probably and with AD per level masteries, 3 flat AD, and probably flat AD reds, with 2 dorans, you are in the ballpark. So the crit is at least breaking even at that point.

My math at least kind of shows that going with AS/crit is similar DPS to rushing IE as far as farming goes without Barrage. WITH barrage active (like when you are harassing) your DPS will be higher.

Kog doesn't exactly have Burst so you aren't gonna duke it out with Vayne/Graves at 550 range. Instead you will pop W periodically and start letting them have it. You generally try to get off multiple hits when doing so, hence DPS with barrage IS a reasonable measure. Without barrage your range sucks and you will be last hitting, NOT harassing.

Anyways, you can decide whether you want the nice movespeed boost (which is about +30 with zeal and +50 with PD after diminishing returns), or even easier lasthitting OR 1-shot harassment maybe if you are against a melee ranged support.


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Amoc

Senior Member

05-04-2012

I'm not really arguing the dps calculations. I haven't run the numbers myself at all and you're probably right about them. Barrage + AS is superior dps. What I'm trying to make a case for is that AS isn't as ideal for practical purposes as it would be on a spreadsheet.

Early game, it's much easier to farm and last hit with higher attack damage. That's simple fact. You can't make up the difference in farming effectiveness with W most of the time because that's the only tool you really have to keep the enemy carry off your ass and worried about you. If he/she sees you pop it to help finish minion waves, as soon as it wears off he'll know he can close on you and easily beat you 1v1. For that reason you can't depend on it for farming, and without building some AD you're going to struggle with CS. Also, a lot of the time when you DO pop it, especially early game, you don't get many hits off, so the AS doesn't make as much of a difference. In the earlier stages of the game, when you're still just trying to CS and deny CS, having the higher alpha damage can make a difference.

I build him a little differently regardless though. I don't build AD for runes, but rather Armor Pen Quints and Reds, Flat Armor Yellows and then MR blues. I start with pretty low AD (I think it's 60 at level 1) so I need to up that asap. I really play Kog'Maw for late game lol....


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Aemon Darkstar

Senior Member

05-04-2012

Personally, I've been running m5-style on Kog lately.

By that I mean, Wriggle's + 2-3 Doran's blades, followed by Phantom Dancer rush (berserker greaves in there as well, of course). Pros of this build? Ramps your early game pretty good, gives you a nice HP pool to survive fights and ganks, gives armor to deal with enemy AD, an extra free ward, and plenty of lifesteal. The Phantom Dancer has obvious benefits.
People are right in thinking that early PD on Kog is enormously beneficial due to his W, and even more so because he has no form of escape whatsoever and the MS boost from PD helps his positioning.

That said, if you're completely STOMPING your lane, an early BF sword is gravy. You'll begin chunking your lane opponent to half health or lower in like 2-3 hits.

I really prefer the Wriggle's/Doran's because it immensely helps your lane game, and you don't really need to worry about scaling because Kog's scaling is godlike anyway.


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Amoc

Senior Member

05-07-2012

I really think that rushing PD on Kog is a bad idea.


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