Why You Lost (A Guide to Winning)

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Lethadind

Senior Member

10-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goaticus Maximus View Post
"Your tanks not protecting you as the AD? Then you need to position better and avoid getting killed while dealing damage"

That's impossible, if irelia wants to dive you and no one is helping you with her she is designed to kill you and will do just that every time... You can't carry a team on any position or in any game. The only thing you can do is help competent team mates who are either having a bad lane match up or just aren't doing well in the laning phase. If they don't know how to team fight or how to build their character, you're screwed and there is nothing you can do about it.

The reason high elo players are consistently high elo is because #1 they're extremely good at communicating and leading people with their charasmatic personalities. They can instruct and get people to listen to them, which gives them an extremely effective advantage over people who can't. That's the magic trick all you gota do is learn how to lead people, sadly it's not something you can always do and it's not just a skill, there are people who are just naturally talented and when the game is designed to be won or loss as a team there's nothing else you can do. I've had games where I went 27/0 as mordekaiser and stomped all over top and bottom, invaded and killed their jungler, but my team just couldn't win a team fight to save their lives. They all depended on me to do everything and since I'm only 1 fed person, the best I could do was try and take out their most valuable targets but when the enemy team figured that out and just blocked me every fight, we lost. People can't seem to accept that this game isn't won by one person, it's won by 5.
Goat, your comments are appreciated, and I want to thank you for giving them, however, please tone down the negativity a little. Also quoting my original post was completely unnecessary and cluttered this page with a lot of useless stuff. What I usually do in that occasion is delete what's inside the quotation and type "Original Post." Meh.

You can't carry with Mordekaiser, it can't be done. If the rest of your team is derping around and they have two people on their team who aren't derping around, you're going to lose.

On the other hand, try going 27/0 with Nasus with 300 farm. Or Cho'Gath. Or Ezreal. Or Karthus. You'll see dramatically different results. Sure Nasus still can't 5v1 in most cases (I actually HAVE 5v1'd as Nasus and came out with a quadra/triple on a few occasions), but he can provide that extra edge that helps carry your derping teammates to victory.

Burst champs can't carry because they can just be bursted back. Other champs can carry. Mordekaiser provides excellent team utility in the amount of crazy AoE damage he does + ult the carry, however without a team to back him up he's dead in the water every time. Nasus and Cho can simply plow through their team dishing out tons of damage while they tickle at their health in return. Ezreal can sit back and reposition all goddamn game long and kite the hell out of the enemy team. Karthus simply opens the teamfight with his ult (in the back away from ****) and then he can run in, Wall, AoE, Q Q Q QQ Q Q. Dead. AoE still up, Q Q Q Q Q Q Q. He can easily wipe out an entire team if they aren't paying attention, and even with four derping teammates they can see low health and go after it, no one is that stupid.

High Elo players have a multitude of skills that allow them to be where they are. One of them might be leadership skills, but it doesn't necessarily have to be. Hundreds of people are >1600 Elo and yet when they get in a team of 5, at least three of them have to follow the lead of someone else. Five leaders trying to lead won't get your team anywhere, because there are a multitude of "right decisions" during any one game that can often conflict with one another (Baron vs. push mid, for instance).

This guide is also geared toward those who are losing and therefore likely lower Elo. If you aren't losing, good for you, but don't pretend to know the world of those who lose until you've sunk into it, it's a lot different than what you think it is.

If you don't agree with the information (I'm not even going to get into it with you on supports) then that's fine, but please don't provide the Negative Nancy viewpoint and ruin what could be potentially beneficial information for many people out there. It's helped 43 people so far, please continue to let it.


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zliplus

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Senior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lethadind View Post
Hey thanks for the input man!

I'm going to clarify a few things that have discrepencies between our two posts, and I hope you agree. The first is that the priority is always yourself. This isn't taking into account "sacrificing yourself so the ADC lives" situations, of course the ADC should live and you should die, but what I'm saying is you should have yourself in mind while laning first, THEN your ADC. If you have your ADC in mind, oftentimes you can overextend and just feed them an unnecessary kill. You can't control if your ADC is derping in lane, but you can control whether YOU are derping.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. Your carry is playing aggressively from the start, so you follow suit, you guys dive their carry and things go badly - your carry dies (or you die). After items are bought, your carry continues to be aggressive and dies twice more. At this point your lane is basically lost without jungle intervention, and if your carry continues to dive in, there's nothing you can do, and trying to "save" him will only end up getting you killed in the long run. Harass, zone as best as you can, but essentially don't give your carry another excuse to dive in - play it safe for yourself and often your carry will follow suit.

Also, I believe the initial question asked was about the laning phase for the most part, ergo warding is incredibly important, and is something that you shouldn't just brush by as "the support's job so we won't talk about it." I consider a support that hasn't bought at least 10 wards in the first ten minutes of the game failing at his role, and if he hasn't bought at least 20 by the time the game's over, then he failed in his role again. Also, keep in mind that wards are part of teamfighting, and are the biggest contribution many supports play in the teamfight during the late game (consider Soraka or Taric, they disrupt a single champion and provide a small amount of heal for the team, but for the most part what they're doing late game is warding the hell out of the map and counter-warding the enemy team). When you know that the team is split and you aren't going to get jumped by a bait, you can feel safe jumping on the two champions top while the three on bottom derp around grabbing cs or pushing or doing whatever they're doing.

I do appreciate your clarifying the different lanes on bottom and the different supports as well, thanks dood!
First of all, before I forget again - great work on this guide. Lots of nice points and discussions in there to think about.

Regarding prioritizing yourself, I think we agree - that's why I added the caveat about knowing what you're capable of. If you can't help, you can't help, and some people can't be helped.

Regard wards - yes, of course they are very important. Also important is noting that wards alone do nothing, you still have to use them (the vision they provide). Wards extend your map awareness, but only if you have any heh. Support is in a good position to pay more attention to the rest of the map, for example by noting any jungler sightings, expiry times and locations of enemy wards, etc. - this can especially be helpful to teammates who lack map awareness on their own (though they'd still need to read text or watch pings). (

On a minor issues, I think your ward numbers are a little off. 10 at 10 min seems high (could go as low as 5-7 wards if you only back once). Total game numbers vary heavily (esp on total time) so that's not as important.

As for late-game, it's true that most of what you do will be passive (auras, wards) - but this is still vitally important and powerful, just less flashy and noticeable. Furthermore, your one disruption is still important - one good ability can often turn fights and win games (esp on those champs that seem to only have one such ability/combo - i.e. supports).

Finally, I mentioned before that tanky supports suffer a bit because they often don't have the gold to be really tanky, so they have to stay back with the ranged. This is true, but there's still roles to fill in the back line, like protecting your ranged. Even if your CC is used, plain old bodyblocking can still make a difference (in some cases a big difference), just as in laning.


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Djinn19

Junior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muktheduck View Post
The reason people dont like support isnt because they consider it worthless. Its because they cant trust others at low elo to perform well. If i know my best role is mid and that i can win that lane almost every time, i dont have much incentive to go play support for an adc that might be awful and leave mid in the hand of someone who might feed.

A good adc can overcome a bad support and still win the lane. A good support cant over come a bad adc, only prolong the inevitable. A good support will win 100% of their games if nobody else feeds, but at low elo there's a lot of people who are 0 3 1 by 15 minutes

This is true if everyone else is borderline retarded. But let's cut the hyperbole. Sometimes, your team is just a little unskilled, not completely worthless. If they were completely worthless, you won't win no matter what position you play.

Remember the point about wards. Maybe your AP mid would have survived and not been snowballed if there was a ward around. It's possible that a ward would have saved him. It takes a special, and rare, form of derp too see a gank coming and still die. If your ADC isn't totally on his mechanics and doesn't CS as hard as you'd like, maybe a little more support would make the difference. If he's rolling his face on the keyboard, your team is screwed anyways. If he is just below average, he can still accomplish something with help.


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Lethadind

Senior Member

10-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Djinn19 View Post
This is true if everyone else is borderline retarded. But let's cut the hyperbole. Sometimes, your team is just a little unskilled, not completely worthless. If they were completely worthless, you won't win no matter what position you play.

Remember the point about wards. Maybe your AP mid would have survived and not been snowballed if there was a ward around. It's possible that a ward would have saved him. It takes a special, and rare, form of derp too see a gank coming and still die. If your ADC isn't totally on his mechanics and doesn't CS as hard as you'd like, maybe a little more support would make the difference. If he's rolling his face on the keyboard, your team is screwed anyways. If he is just below average, he can still accomplish something with help.
This is exactly what I'm saying, thanks Djinn.

There are complete and total Derps and Derpinas out there that basically are 2/18 in ranked and headed down the spiral to 0 Elo, but for the most part people are simply "subpar," or playing "subpar." The tiniest boost could make all the difference in the world.

I used this analogy once and I liked it. Imagine that you winning your lane is calculated by a series of numbers representing "mistakes taken advantage of," (This is, after all, how you win - by taking advantages of the other team's mistakes while making fewer yourself) which increase in magnitude according to how serious the mistake was. Imagine at the end of the laning phase that you lost your lane, because you and your support's "Number" totals is something like 147, while their number total was like 155. Say that your support was 58 and you were 89, while their support was 68 and their AD Carry was 87. You *barely* outplayed their AD Carry, but their support outplayed yours. Well, a small shift of 8 was all that would have been required to instead win the lane. That means maybe taking advantage of his mistakes a little more whilst making a few less yourself, you would have won, despite their support outplaying yours by a fairly large margin.

This scenario is actually quite common, but for some reason people seem to believe it's more like You - 89, your support - 5, their ADC - 67, their support - 46. "Ya dude I totally out cs'd him in the first five minutes and then my support just failed and we lost the lane." This is what people think happens, but it doesn't usually happen this way. More often than not, your support isn't a complete derp. Or ADC, it swings either way.

If your ADC is losing a little, you need to outplay their support and take advantage of a few more mistakes and make a few less yourself. You can't control your carry, but you can help bring them out of their stupor - they aren't stupid, if they see a Caitlyn standing there stunned whilst the support is away they know they need to dive in and wreck her face off, and they will follow suit. Get better at looking for these opportunities. I had the privilege of getting destroyed by a guy in 1900 Elo who doesn't main as a support, but he played support against me. He totally carried the lane, his AD Carry was *decent* but not "1900 Elo *decent.*" That lane was won because the kid knew how to take advantage of our mistakes perfectly - and he did, every time. The carry simply followed suit.

Again, it falls back to my comment to the naysayers about support from the first page - there's more you can do, you're just mentally lazy.

-~-~-

@ zliplus - Yeah man, I think we both see the same way, I figured you did, but I wanted to make it clear to the readers. Thanks for your input!


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EyeMtheStron9est

Senior Member

10-16-2012

Great overall. I don't agree with the support section on many points, but it's w/e. Good stuff.


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KoldVanilaBear

Junior Member

10-16-2012

very well said. i'll be checking back for updates!


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Mr Fáhrenheit

Member

10-17-2012

(Y)
Good guide sir!


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zliplus

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

10-17-2012

On your first post, I see you have a list of future topics, one of which is 'not dying'. I'd like to comment on that, not so much in terms of how to avoid dying, but in the terms of 'not carrying'.

A *lot* of the posters on forums have the mindset that they are/should be carrying games, that they get teams that they can't carry, etc. This is a dangerous mindset, because it suggests that you're treating your teammates as inferior, such that you *have* to carry them (or that you're competing against your team for carrying). This is the other side of the common ego complex - when you think you're at a lower ELO than you belong, you naturally think you're better than your teammates. This naturally can lead to you subconsciously sabotaging your team relationship and your own chances of winning.

Now, people have mentioned that a lot of people carry themselves out of some range via playing support. One possible reason for this is that, as support, you are not expected (by others, but also by yourself) to carry games. Without this (perhaps unfair and unreasonable) expectation that you should somehow perform better than your team, you are more able to focus on teamwork and actually winning.

Now, back to the topic of 'not dying', and a case example. I main support, and was 2nd pick Taric. When champ select got to our last pick, he indicated that he'd really prefer to play support. Based on the chat, it occurred to me that this person really did not seem at all confident with mid (which was the leftover lane), so I traded Taric for Ryze. Now, I'm reasonably decent with Cass in mid, while I had never played Ryze in ranked before (and only a few times in normal). Why in the world would I pick Ryze?

My lane opponent was Brand. I chose Ryze because he's a much safer, defensive champion overall than Cass. He's slow to start, but naturally builds fairly tanky as the game passes and is easy to use. He's just not as high-risk as Cass. From trading support to our last pick in champ select, I had decided to focus not on carrying but on not losing the game.

In the end, I lost lane a little (I didn't CS too well) but never fed. My other lanes won a little but didn't stomp. In midgame I died a couple of times to bad timing but also was useful in teamfights. The whole was fairly even throughout. In late game I wasn't as tanky as I needed to be, and I didn't build enough mr instead of armor. However, I noticed (from the first fight I got caught a little) that despite being focused early, I wasn't melting. I wasn't tanky enough to live, but I had enough time to get out a rotation and do some aoe dmg, and more importantly to draw out the enemy team's main abilities allowing my team to win the fights. I started intentionally tanking by baiting 'getting caught' - I died (and early) in just about every team fight, but we still won every team fight by a small but clear margin. After 3 or 4 such won fights, we eventually managed to straight push mid and win a clear victory.

In summary, the point is that winning is what matters in the end. You don't have to carry, get all the kills, never die, or anything like that. All you have to do is contribute, and there's many ways to do it, as long as you and your team keeps working together.


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MLKdidntZhonyas

Junior Member

10-17-2012

all true storiz


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Lethadind

Senior Member

10-17-2012

Thanks again for the input zliplus. This thread is turning into somewhat of a discussion thread, which is great. There are a ton of topics to cover and there's no way I can cover them all.

I actually have an updated version of the guide saved to my word processor, but unfortunately I can't post it here. When I do get around to making another topic I'll drop the link here.

The moral of the story, though, is this: look at all the topics we've covered that are in your control! SOOOOO many!! Stop blaming your teammates and work on one of them so you can get better! There is no "fix all" solution, and there is no conspiracy to destroy your Elo, you are in control of at least 10% of the game (that's the minimum control you have), but it can grow to 20% or more if everyone else in the game is derping around not really doing anything horribly productive. Chances are most of them will be, take advantage of this, notice your own mistakes, and improve on them.