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[Guide] Zen Malzahar: How to Learn Patience

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MoogIe

Senior Member

10-06-2010

Quote:
Yes, actually. If they are running away then you did your job. Now you sit still while you and your team blow up their tower. Last time I checked, towers can't run away, so the slow on Rylai's is moot.


That's all fine and dandy, but your build has it so it does literally no damage, especially to people that have something as simple as abyssal or Force of Nature. Those items shut down Malz hard. So again, ult, they run away initially, come back and they're like, "Oh wait, he used his scariest ability, and now it's on a cooldown. I can kill him now!"

Yes, to win, you need to kill towers, but that doesn't mean you can't kill people in the process of killing the towers, so they won't be a nuisance anymore. Because I know for a fact, any smart caster will not go anywhere near a tower that has enemy champions trying to protect it. They would just get CC'd or bursted in seconds. Let's face it, no smart player would leave their tower unattended while they let some caster whacking at it, especially if they aren't as hurt as they can be from his ult/abilities.

Again, the slow is icing on the cake. It's used for utility so you can kill people to actually take down the towers. Last I checked, you cannot use abilities on towers, so the scare tactic of yours is pointless. Kill people, kill tower, move on. (Oh psst, 40% of AP turns into auto attack damage against towers. Having AP helps Malz killthe towers.)

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If you are in range of their carry, then you are also in range of their tank and cc. Which is exactly at odds to what you said here:


I can already tell you're going to put me into a circle of words which you fail to interpret correctly. Just because I'm in range of everyone else, doesn't mean they're in range of me, which is exactly what I was saying in my statement. He can OUTRANGE people with his buff. Because he can OUTRANGE people with his ult, he won't be IN the fight. He will be on the SIDElines. Get it? If you don't have good composition, aka, some cc with a tank that is useful (read useful, not Malphite or something like that), then there's little worries for you to be in a situation where Malz would be taking damage. As for morgana, I was stating she was the exact opposite in terms of what she has to do for her ult, she has to be close to the enemy for it to work. Just because I was relating it to Malzahar, doesn't mean I'm saying he has to be the one to initiate. That's not even his job, it's a tanks.

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I've played against caster Malz, and they are always saving their spells for a rainy day because they can't spam them like I can. Sure, their spells hit harder when they cast them once, but over the course of a ten wave push, they run oom pretty quickly.


You're doing it wrong, and so are they. MV gives them mana back while harassing a fair amount. Bounce, bounce, bounce, enemy champion for 400~ damage. Free damage for little mana cost.


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reaver99

Senior Member

10-07-2010

For a poking team, I think I'd take Morgana over Malzahar since she can heal herself, poke and push very well with her pool and binding, and prevent damage with her shield. Malzahar is better for a poking team than Annie or Ryze, but I don't think he offers anything that Morgana can't do better.

On the other hand, his disable is pretty good, and I think you might be underestimating his range. For example, I've hard trouble stunning him as Taric since by the time I got close enough to fire the stun and wait for it to hit, the person he targeted is dead already. Malzahar's main strength is just in shutting someone down.


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ZOMGTURTLE

Senior Member

10-07-2010

I like the guide. It's good in theory. Applying it and being successful with this particular build sounds a bit more difficult than 'ZOMFG GOTTA STAKZ THE AP ITEMZ TO BLOW UR D00DZ UP!!1ONE!1!'

I play a VERY high HP Ryze, so this is right up my ally. When people start yelling at me when I pick up a Levi on Ryze, I don't respond. After I've killed/assisted my way to 20 stacks, I basically become a STUPID high damage output tank with my CD reduc runes and Rylai's/RoA/Leviathan. Not much in the way of regen, so I pick up Teleport to get me in and out of the fray asap. Also, I ***** the golem buff so that Mana regen doesn't become an issue.

I'm gonna give this build the 'ole college try. Since I play lots of squishies like Ryze, Karthus, and MF, I've learned my lesson many a time when I position incorrectly. Grey screen used to be what I stared at a lot. Not so much anymore.


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Scabadoobop

Recruiter

10-07-2010

Gtfo the community only wants "QWER = Dead" champions, not ones that require more thinking D:


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simplygnome

Senior Member

10-07-2010

I would be willing to try this. Sounds fun. I'll let you know how I do with it. =D


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MoogIe

Senior Member

10-07-2010

Quote:
Applying it and being successful with this particular build sounds a bit more difficult than 'ZOMFG GOTTA STAKZ THE AP ITEMZ TO BLOW UR D00DZ UP!!1ONE!1!'


Yes, but that's what Malz does with a little help from Rylai's and Zhonya's. He can take some damage, but not a lot. He won't be taking as much so you think because he doesn't NEED to be in the battle. He can use his ability and get out. Go in, go out. And that going in phase, is hardly anything more than a few steps behind your other harassers. He has the range. Use it.

As for your Ryze, he doesn't have the range. Two completely different concepts.


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ZOMGTURTLE

Senior Member

10-07-2010

Yeah, not that similar.

No speed increase on Zhonya's or Rylai's, though, as oppsed to FoN. No CD reduc either, like with a Frozen Heart. 10% CD reduc between Deathfire's and Frozen Heart actually makes a pretty big difference when you consider how many more times you can use a spell over the duration of a game. No mana on either of those items, either. Oh, and no atk spd debuff for when those pesky melee finally do catch you out of position. Rylai's will give you a slow, but it's duration is fair **** compared to a constant movement increase with FoN.


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Montegomery

Recruiter

10-07-2010

Quote:
concretebuddha:
Survivability and sustainability are two separate things. Rylai's, RoA, and Zhonya's all give you survivability with zero sustainability. Once you take damage, that damage is permanent unless you have a pocket healer, or you run all the way back to the Nexus while your team faces a 4v5 and your tower dies.

Sure, if every team fight takes 6 seconds, then those three items are super. If your team roams the jungle and picks fights that last the span of Amumu's, MF's, and Sona's ults, then please don't build Malzahar my way.

If, however, you are using Malzahar on a tower pushing team, where you might sit on the same tower for ten minion waves, or if you are trying to defend a tower over an equal amount, then perhaps the 2 seconds of invulnerability or the extra health that gets chewed up in one harassment exchange is not as useful as what I've suggested.

...


A few points:

1. If you team is lacking a support champion, why are you playing Malzahar? Malzahar is a fun and strong champion, but you will be leaps and bounds more useful playing support if your team is lacking one.

2. You should not be taking damage. Whether defending or attacking, Malzahar has sufficient range that only Kog'maw and stealth champions should have a shot at hurting you, and the latter should be putting themselves at huge risk to do so if you're positioned carefully.

3. If you are taking life-threatening damage chances are you need a new strategy. Small amounts of damage can happen to the best of us, but taking a life threatening amount either in one go or over time indicates either you are not playing well that game or that your team is outclassed when it comes to standoffs. In either case, your current strategy of standing around a single tower probably isn't going to help you or your team.

4. Zhonya's Ring can be used every other creep wave. It's a 1 minute cooldown and creep waves come every 30 seconds. At worst, you could hang back every other creep wave and let other, more robust members of your team take the initiative. If you can't trust your team to do that, you have bigger problems at hand.

In summary, certainly my build has no way to regenerate damage beyond passive health regen, but if my team lacks a support champion I should hope that the extra damage or tank would allow us to force a confrontation, or that they also lack a support champ. Otherwise it's silly to build Malzahar like a tank or support, which he is not suited to, when I could have chosen a proper one at the loading screen.


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MoogIe

Senior Member

10-07-2010

Quote:
Montegomery:
A few points:

1. If you team is lacking a support champion, why are you playing Malzahar? Malzahar is a fun and strong champion, but you will be leaps and bounds more useful playing support if your team is lacking one.

2. You should not be taking damage. Whether defending or attacking, Malzahar has sufficient range that only Kog'maw and stealth champions should have a shot at hurting you, and the latter should be putting themselves at huge risk to do so if you're positioned carefully.

3. If you are taking life-threatening damage chances are you need a new strategy. Small amounts of damage can happen to the best of us, but taking a life threatening amount either in one go or over time indicates either you are not playing well that game or that your team is outclassed when it comes to standoffs. In either case, your current strategy of standing around a single tower probably isn't going to help you or your team.

4. Zhonya's Ring can be used every other creep wave. It's a 1 minute cooldown and creep waves come every 30 seconds. At worst, you could hang back every other creep wave and let other, more robust members of your team take the initiative. If you can't trust your team to do that, you have bigger problems at hand.

In summary, certainly my build has no way to regenerate damage beyond passive health regen, but if my team lacks a support champion I should hope that the extra damage or tank would allow us to force a confrontation, or that they also lack a support champ. Otherwise it's silly to build Malzahar like a tank or support, which he is not suited to, when I could have chosen a proper one at the loading screen.


Thank you, you summarized all of what I wanted to say. +1

Quote:
No speed increase on Zhonya's or Rylai's, though, as oppsed to FoN. No CD reduc either, like with a Frozen Heart. 10% CD reduc between Deathfire's and Frozen Heart actually makes a pretty big difference when you consider how many more times you can use a spell over the duration of a game. No mana on either of those items, either. Oh, and no atk spd debuff for when those pesky melee finally do catch you out of position. Rylai's will give you a slow, but it's duration is fair **** compared to a constant movement increase with FoN.


Reducing their movement speed essentially reduces their attack speed. That and it helps you get some distance regardless, and hopefully you aren't dumb enough to go off on your alone and overextend in a lane when it's during mid/late game. It all goes back to the point of not dying. Learn map awareness, know when it's fine to jungle/clear creep waves, know when to retreat. It's what mages/carries SHOULD know. What makes you think Malzahar should be different from all the rest? Because he has no escape mechanism? It just means he needs to be more careful.


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ZOMGTURTLE

Senior Member

10-08-2010

Quote:
Trikitty:
Reducing their movement speed essentially reduces their attack speed. That and it helps you get some distance regardless, and hopefully you aren't dumb enough to go off on your alone and overextend in a lane when it's during mid/late game. It all goes back to the point of not dying. Learn map awareness, know when it's fine to jungle/clear creep waves, know when to retreat. It's what mages/carries SHOULD know. What makes you think Malzahar should be different from all the rest? Because he has no escape mechanism? It just means he needs to be more careful.


He's different in a few crucial ways. His big damage requires his targets to sit still, and he doesn't have an escape mechanism. Damage happens. Period. Tower dives, teleports, drop-ins, Gang's/Ashe's/Ez's ult... these are clear and present dangers. I'm not saying Rylai's is the absolute worst item ever for Malz, what I am saying is that it's wrong to assume your opponent doesn't know how to force bad positioning, or your team is going to call every MIA, and you just simply can't see the whole map every second. This item build covers your bases better, in my opinion. If I feel it absolutely dire that I have a slow, I will try Rylai's in substitution for another item. I just feel like this particular build brings more longevity to a champion who may become a bigger threat pushing towers than just being that scary mage when his ult is up.

I respect your opinions, I just feel like this could be a viable way to play Malz as well. Maybe you should try it to. Who knows?! You may have a load of fun.