Creative Design AMA - Soraka and Warwick

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ThorRush

Senior Member

09-23-2012

Realistically, it looks like the AMAs are only open for a couple days at most, usually they're only open for a few hours ...

Creative answers many questions, but they can't answer all of them. They'd never get anything done. So ... any lore that is being produced is really not visible.

If you feel like prying for answers though, all the members of Riot have in game accounts you can try to pester. You could test your luck and send a friend request.


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Eserine

Senior Member

09-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorRush View Post
Realistically, it looks like the AMAs are only open for a couple days at most, usually they're only open for a few hours ...

Creative answers many questions, but they can't answer all of them. They'd never get anything done. So ... any lore that is being produced is really not visible.

If you feel like prying for answers though, all the members of Riot have in game accounts you can try to pester. You could test your luck and send a friend request.
The internet is a vehicle of convenience, one can visit the forums on a whim whenever spare time allows, which I believe is how many developers that you do not seem to be aware of carry giant AMA threads through in the much more popular General Discussion section while answering every single question over hundreds of pages as they are able. To me this does not signify that such members as Riot Ezreal or Gypsylord are slacker deadweights devoid of all achievement, it seems to demonstrate a genuine passion for using the collective power of player creativity and analyticism to make the game as awesome as possible. I use the phrase "genuine passion" because hosting a half-hearted thread for a few hours before sluffing off to Pintrest or Tumblr or Facebook (or whatever this is) after finding something convincing to fill in on a middle-management progress report is not the same thing. Why should we the players (who have busy jobs and lives, and friends and families of our own) take the time to visit these threads to inquire or comment in an attempt to improve things when "the time can't be found" to consider or address what we might raise as concerns, or even the time to simply mark when the conversation has ended?


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ThorRush

Senior Member

09-25-2012

I ... don't understand your post, but maybe I can help.

Quote:
one can visit the forums on a whim whenever spare time allows ... Why should we the players (who have busy jobs and lives, and friends and families of our own) take the time to visit these threads
No one's ... forcing you to? You even found the alternatives ("not the same thing") to these threads, which you are ... complaining about? (Additional networking is not passionate enough?)

So instead, you want Creative to act like Ezreal. Over the two years his thread has been open, I believe he has taken the time once a month to respond to that. (He also just started a Twitter.) These lore AMAs are about one out of over a hundred characters. The way I see it, if creative kept answering each of them ... well, they'd be busy and we'd get lore, but honestly, I prefer that they actually work on their top secret lore project.

You are also looking to provide feedback. You can do this in game, or on those networking sites you mentioned, or even on these very forums. You may submit feedback to your heart's content. Riot may not respond, but they've proven that they watch the forums.

If there's something you don't understand, feel free to open a discussion and see what others think. This is Lore Discussion, after all.


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AureliaLights

Junior Member

09-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane Azmadi View Post
I think people are overstating how dumb and gullible Soraka is made to look by the new lore. Warwick is cunning, this new story is meant to actually SHOW how intelligent he is. Soraka isn't "dumb" for not seeing through Warwick's story at a glance, if you just read Soraka's lore alone without the knowledge of Warwicks then her actions seem perfectly reasonable- she fails to save Warwick's "wife", comes to trust him as she futilely attempts to persuade him away from revenge and sacrifices her divinity to save her friend. It's a story of noble sacrifice which only makes her look stupid because, having read Warwick's lore, we the readers know he's playing her from the start. Warwick's plan worked so well because it was a good plan and he executed it almost flawlessly, not because Soraka has a room-temperture IQ (and considering her role, a little naiveity is perfectly justifiable- someone as good as Soraka would have a hard time even imagining that men as evil as Warwick even exist). Warwick's only failure was failing to kill Soraka with his first thrust and underestimating the power she still had even after falling.

I do agree, though, that it would be better if Soraka's response crippled Warwick, forcing him to drink the incomplete potion in order to heal his ruined body enough to seek revenge. As written, he just throws a temper-tantrum and demands an unstable potion, only to find that "oops, side effects".
Yes! Thank you, this is how I feel about the change. Its being looked at too shallowly. You'll also notice in Warwick's lore it barely mentions the betrayal, because it meant nothing to WW. Soraka's broken feelings and what she sacrificed to save him don't matter to him and he didn't get what he needed so it was glanced over in his lore.


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Eserine

Senior Member

09-25-2012

You have mischaracterized the point I was attempting to make ThorRush, allow me to elucidate what I have written in my last post more clearly for you

- There are generally two types of question asked in a lore revision AMA thread by players, externalized questions that touch upon aspects of a character that has nothing to do with its story or revisions ("How does Soraka feel about the color purple?" or "Does Soraka like Icecream?" or "Would Soraka rather go sailboating with Twisted Fate or General Darius?") and secondly internalized questions raising praise or concern with the actual crafting of the story, as we see a lot of in past pages of this conversation ("Have you considered that the way you now portray Soraka will negatively alter the ability of players to connect with her, or preserve a suspension of disbelief?").

- While there is a potentially unbound number of externalized questions from players seeking fanfiction opportunities or to draw attention for themselves as job candidates, there are a limited number of internalized story issues brought forward as important problems by players worrying about the fidelity of the game universe. These issues being brought forward by players are overwhelmingly ignored in favor of focusing on externalized questions in the AMA for the half hour or so the lore team deigns to skim the comments.

- The players seeking injunction upon bad inclusions into the storyline are not "forced to" participate in the thread, but are led to doing this out of a love of the gameworld and a desire to see the lore progression succeed where often in modern television, cinema, and games the story fails during rewrites or sequels under the weight of hasty and bad craftsmanship (The Star Wars prequels being an excellent example). The new Warwick and Soraka lore contains obvious logical holes and does not combine well with inalterable aspects of other characters.

- When challenged in the past with dramatic story problems by players it has been the lore team's response to ignore the criticism and release the lore unchanged anyway, as will likely happen with the lore of Warwick and Soraka despite an outcry by several players who will never be answered in their feedback. The concerned players use their spare time to attempt to stop bad decisions from being made, the lore team uses its spare time to play "happy wolfpeople lovetime quest". The idea of failing to deliver in their duties to form a compelling story is clearly not keeping the lore team up at night, which is a pity because in fact in the opinion of many players they are failing. I further went on to suggest in deeper illustration of this idea that member of the lore team are goofing-off on different internet outlets, by this I did not mean that they were rapt and waiting for valuable interaction with the players on the subject of doing high-quality work. I mean that they are watching the intellectual equivalent of stupid cat videos. What gives credence to this idea? Economic productivity reports on what sites employees commonly waste time on, secondly the poor quality of the lore output clearly lacking foresight or care recently (as well as flow or musicality), and thirdly the past instances where champion designers have felt the need to create lore themselves for champions as a primary director, like Leona and Diana, in what is in effect a no-confidence vote for the resident lore experts of the company. Fourthly in some cases we actually have access to viewing the pages of the lore team on time-wasting sites and it would seem that they mainly seek to capitalize on the name-recognition brought by their titles to gain a wider attention for their own personal musings on subjects non-related to the game League of Legends, and fifth-ly Zileas has mentioned that Hollywood television writers were recently brought in for Project X, where, as we know, all the previous lore team besides Babaganoush remains intact and has had several months without producing anything publicly to either work or "explore the concepts" of lore improvements, which again doesn't seem to place confidence in the abilities of the lore team.

- This thread is the designated and public discussion space for players to talk about and give feedback to the lore alterations with credible response, and to suggest all players take their concerns privately to back-channels to replicate the same queries over and over again is neither efficient for the players or the members of the lore team, nor is it realistic in assuming any response where individuals working for RIOT will not answer on the record in the forums.

- Lastly as some AMAs exist where every question is answered, it seems rather rude and disrespectful to both those with externalized and internalized contributions to suddenly and invisibly leave-off response so players are left waiting for the rest of their lives for answers. I doubt there are enough users of the lore forum to keep a thread going at the length you suggest is possible, but if true that champion AMA's could span months they could easily be closed to further interaction with the lore writers with an announcement post.

- For these reasons I dispute this thread being called an "AMA", what the lore team now offers are "AMANIWASAUTP's (Ask Me Anything Non-Important Within a Short and Undefined Time Period). For the level of exchange possible these threads are not worth participating in for those with story-relating concerns.


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ThorRush

Senior Member

09-25-2012

... Well, I guess I'll try to respond. Your largest point is hard to read though, it should have been several points. Here we go ...

Quote:
When challenged in the past with dramatic story problems by players it has been the lore team's response to ignore the criticism and release the lore unchanged anyway, as will likely happen with the lore of Warwick and Soraka despite an outcry by several players who will never be answered in their feedback. The concerned players use their spare time to attempt to stop bad decisions from being made, the lore team uses its spare time to play "happy wolfpeople lovetime quest". The idea of failing to deliver in their duties to form a compelling story is clearly not keeping the lore team up at night, which is a pity because in fact in the opinion of many players they are failing.
Really? What about Katarina? What about Jayce? What about the two words that were Lux's ultimate?

Quote:
I further went on to suggest in deeper illustration of this idea that member of the lore team are goofing-off on different internet outlets, by this I did not mean that they were rapt and waiting for valuable interaction with the players on the subject of doing high-quality work. I mean that they are watching the intellectual equivalent of stupid cat videos. What gives credence to this idea? Economic productivity reports on what sites employees commonly waste time on,
Of course the vast majority of everything is junk. Why do people use those sites at all if research says its worthless? Because value comes from the individual, not the medium.

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secondly the poor quality of the lore output clearly lacking foresight or care recently (as well as flow or musicality),
That's subjective. As I said before, these are the Lore Discussion forums. If you feel that way about something (what is "clear" to you is not always clear to anyone else), open a discussion. I and the rest of the Lore Forum will be happy to tell you what we think.

Quote:
thirdly the past instances where champion designers have felt the need to create lore themselves for champions as a primary director, like Leona and Diana, in what is in effect a no-confidence vote for the resident lore experts of the company.
I don't know how you came to that conclusion. Ironstylus still defers to Runaan in terms of lore. He simply drew inspiration from his wife to meet the community demand for a female tank.

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Fourthly in some cases we actually have access to viewing the pages of the lore team on time-wasting sites and it would seem that they mainly seek to capitalize on the name-recognition brought by their titles to gain a wider attention for their own personal musings on subjects non-related to the game League of Legends, and
They're not exactly paid to do that. They're gamers too. They talk about their work in their spare time in addition to whatever else they would do. I actually can't speak much about it, since I don't use those sites. However, the point is, Rioters are accessible.

Quote:
fifth-ly Zileas has mentioned that Hollywood television writers were recently brought in for Project X, where, as we know, all the previous lore team besides Babaganoush remains intact and has had several months without producing anything publicly to either work or "explore the concepts" of lore improvements, which again doesn't seem to place confidence in the abilities of the lore team.
I actually haven't seen that. (Man, I could look that up, but, then again, I could care less until it's released)

Lore is on the way. They have a top secret lore project they are preparing. Rewrites are merely signs of what is coming. While you may not appreciate their quality, I believe it is because they are only small parts of a larger whole. You can't judge a book by its cover. If it's all you have to judge, judge collectively. Talk to the lore forums and see what other people think.

I read the rest of your points as "not happy with how lore is being delivered." In my eyes, lore is barely being delivered at all. Improvements must be made. However, it appears you would prefer that these AMAs were like Ezreal's AMA (open forever, responded to once a month, ... one for every champion?). I would not. I think that is a waste of time. They are busy working on the next big thing.


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Eserine

Senior Member

09-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorRush View Post
Quote:
When challenged in the past with dramatic story problems by players it has been the lore team's response to ignore the criticism and release the lore unchanged anyway, as will likely happen with the lore of Warwick and Soraka despite an outcry by several players who will never be answered in their feedback. The concerned players use their spare time to attempt to stop bad decisions from being made, the lore team uses its spare time to play "happy wolfpeople lovetime quest". The idea of failing to deliver in their duties to form a compelling story is clearly not keeping the lore team up at night, which is a pity because in fact in the opinion of many players they are failing.
Really? What about Katarina? What about Jayce? What about the two words that were Lux's ultimate?
None of these were fixed to the satisfaction of the players, the Katarina AMA is ongoing with unanswered problems, there were bad reactions to the continued portrayal of Victor as a villain in Jayce's lore (who still reads like a minion-accompanied Mighty Morphin Power Ranger antagonist), there were dozens of threads demanding that the name Lux's ultimate should not be changed at all and represented a genius reference to a blockbuster anime series called "Touhou" (which I've personally never seen but still support over the blasť new implementation). The lore team proceeded anyway in each of these instances over the protests of the players, claiming victory through a compromise that still gave them exactly what they wanted. During the discussion of the flaws in Syndra's lore (which were never addressed) there were scores of players citing these exact examples as endemic of a wider malaise rotting through the core of the game. If you don't visit the wider forums very much or only bother to read Riot posts within threads you may not be aware of the overpowering consensus now formed throughout the playerbase which condemns these foolhardy alterations, yet condemned they remain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorRush View Post
Quote:
I further went on to suggest in deeper illustration of this idea that member of the lore team are goofing-off on different internet outlets, by this I did not mean that they were rapt and waiting for valuable interaction with the players on the subject of doing high-quality work. I mean that they are watching the intellectual equivalent of stupid cat videos. What gives credence to this idea? Economic productivity reports on what sites employees commonly waste time on,
Of course the vast majority of everything is junk. Why do people use those sites at all if research says its worthless? Because value comes from the individual, not the medium.
Your platitude is ill-applied. Research says that using recreational heroin is worthless, yet people use it, and not because value comes from the individual heroin user separate from the medium. Heroin users, and those who waste time on sites like Facebook, are weak. Genetic heritability factors and environmental pressures combine to lead these users to seek entertainment through a non-enriching past-time that damages their relationships and work quality. Both demonstrate a marked disregard for the individual's creative products, and also billions of dollars of lost productivity every year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorRush View Post
Quote:
secondly the poor quality of the lore output clearly lacking foresight or care recently (as well as flow or musicality),
That's subjective. As I said before, these are the Lore Discussion forums. If you feel that way about something (what is "clear" to you is not always clear to anyone else), open a discussion. I and the rest of the Lore Forum will be happy to tell you what we think.
I hold with the aforementioned consensus built upon a thousand angry player-posts. Your further affirmation of the validity of my views is not required, especially since I have gone in-depth already in this thread about what I see as Warwick/Soraka lore problems and you nor anyone else has presented a challenge to these views. I don't think that you have read this thread, how could I assume that you would read a separate thread?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorRush View Post
Quote:
thirdly the past instances where champion designers have felt the need to create lore themselves for champions as a primary director, like Leona and Diana, in what is in effect a no-confidence vote for the resident lore experts of the company.
I don't know how you came to that conclusion. Ironstylus still defers to Runaan in terms of lore. He simply drew inspiration from his wife to meet the community demand for a female tank.
He also "simply" claimed with Morello to have written over a hundred extra pages of lore for Diana during a General Discussion overview which I am going to guess that you didn't read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorRush View Post
Quote:
Fourthly in some cases we actually have access to viewing the pages of the lore team on time-wasting sites and it would seem that they mainly seek to capitalize on the name-recognition brought by their titles to gain a wider attention for their own personal musings on subjects non-related to the game League of Legends, and
They're not exactly paid to do that. They're gamers too. They talk about their work in their spare time in addition to whatever else they would do. I actually can't speak much about it, since I don't use those sites. However, the point is, Rioters are accessible.
Under your definition large rocks are accessible. You can scream at them for years, visit them frequently and they will never answer or take your critiques into account, but in your view it seems that this would be a worthwhile relationship.

According to President Tryndamere in several posts (in the General Discussion forum) Riot employees are paid to do one thing: deliver awesomeness to the fullest extent of their abilities. Not ignore players and churn out execrable bilge collaboratively defecated out of an offensively illiterate and derivative slurry-nozzle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorRush View Post
Quote:
fifth-ly Zileas has mentioned that Hollywood television writers were recently brought in for Project X, where, as we know, all the previous lore team besides Babaganoush remains intact and has had several months without producing anything publicly to either work or "explore the concepts" of lore improvements, which again doesn't seem to place confidence in the abilities of the lore team.
I actually haven't seen that. (Man, I could look that up, but, then again, I could care less until it's released)
I doubt that you could look it up given the amount of motivation or interest you have already failed to display, but here you go:

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...73222#28673222


Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorRush View Post
Lore is on the way. They have a top secret lore project they are preparing. Rewrites are merely signs of what is coming. While you may not appreciate their quality, I believe it is because they are only small parts of a larger whole. You can't judge a book by its cover. If it's all you have to judge, judge collectively. Talk to the lore forums and see what other people think.

I read the rest of your points as "not happy with how lore is being delivered." In my eyes, lore is barely being delivered at all. Improvements must be made. However, it appears you would prefer that these AMAs were like Ezreal's AMA (open forever, responded to once a month, ... one for every champion?). I would not. I think that is a waste of time. They are busy working on the next big thing.
A sign of what is coming indeed! Strap in ThorRush. We're about to take a ride on sludge mountain, and the meaty grease drippings sprayed upon your unsuspecting face are only a small parts of a larger upcoming whole! The precedents have been cast, Project X stirs beneath a series of terrible drafts, and now we learn the true depths of Total Creative Despair!


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ThorRush

Senior Member

09-25-2012

Well, I can see you're upset, and I don't hold any illusions that I can change your mind. One more question: why are you still here if this game is so worthless?


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Eserine

Senior Member

09-25-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorRush View Post
Well, I can see you're upset, and I don't hold any illusions that I can change your mind. One more question: why are you still here if this game is so worthless?

I am here in this thread because, unlike the lore team, when a player directly questions anything I have written, I honor their queries with a full response because they are a human being or Turing-valid AI system deserving of that respect. I've already stated (as hopefully you've read) that this is the last lore AMA thread I ever plan to contribute to.

I am still involved with discussion of the game on the larger scale because "League of Legends" is the most played computer game in world history, and much of the creative future of the world hangs upon the careless throwaway garbage the developers dump before a population of millions of eventual authors, writers, directors, game-makers, artists, and social theorists whose views and creations will be colored permanently throughout their lives by the experiences they have early-on with Runeterra. The world's next Michelangelo might be currently be drawing Morgana fandom sketches, The world's next Italo Calvino or Jhumpa Lahiri might be SilentNomad, Axxlon, or even you, and I have no wish for these future offerings to contain any reference to bloated and stumbling "Manhunter" storylines.

My continuing disappointment with these developer shortcomings (as with many players I think) is fed by a love of books and a vision of the game's potential that will never be realized without better management and leadership in the departments of RIOT. While you may be attempting to intimate subtextually that the larger body of players who feel as I do are beyond reasonable discourse, I would state that we are beyond reasonable discourse only when it is being conducted by idiots who can't form answers to our arguments. I am confident that there are no slavishly-working Stakhanovite lore writers dutifully typing away their flesh to the finger-bone for a tortured secret work of brilliance, because if there were they would never allow any of this new lore in its disgraceful state to ever be put forward and jeopardize the impact of their ultimate creation. They would be in this thread backing you up with a rhetorical cannonade aimed to knock me unconscious through my computer monitor at all strange hours of the night. Please think of this in the ensuing and damning silence of ignored-thread oblivion.

Goodbye.


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Araxis the Dark

Senior Member

09-26-2012

Really need to look at singeds lore with this update, as it reflects Warwick.