☆☆☆ WHY You Should Click PUNISH For One Bad Incident Out Of Five ☆☆☆

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Driln

Junior Member

11-08-2012

So.. whilst traversing across this forum I for- whatever reason- decided to peruse the "Tribunal" section.
It's truly disheartening that there is pretty much the same amount of downvotes for everybody and anybody who decides that they don't agree with the current system. There should never have been a justice system run by the same people who play the game.

Anybody I've seen even attempt to argue against this would-be Mitt Romney of the Tribunal "JohnnyOmega" has been smashed by downvotes and the most straight-backed, uptight, and robotic replies I've ever witnessed. The most common retort has been "^This guy has had a bad vote from the Tribunal therefore his opinion isn't worth reading". High horses, indeed.

First and foremost, you should not PUNISH somebody whom has 1/5 games warranting a PUNISH. This should be common sense. I bet almost everybody who reads these forums have encountered a game where no matter what sort of influence they've tried to place into the game they were in, they were getting a report whether they liked it or not. Personally, I've been reported by somebody for something as inconclusive as a First Blood. From being First Blooded, the individual made the decision that I was "bad", and then rallied the other team through the 'gift' of all-chat into reporting me at the end of the game. Defending myself gets me reported. Not saying anything gets me reported.

Now I'm not saying that there aren't people on the Tribunal that don't deserve a swift slap with a ban hammer. What I am saying (inb4 religious use of all of these kids' downvote button) is that there are people who end up on the Tribunal under false pretenses. I don't remember which thread I was on, but somebody was trying to express how the Internet as a whole is inhabited by a near infinite amount of personalities. There should not be repercussions just because somebody talks a little bit more crude than you're used to. You can't call the cops on somebody who cusses in front of you whilst behind a counter of some sort in the service industry. You shouldn't be allowed to report somebody just because they say "noob" once or twice. Further to this, the threat of a report should be reportable! How do you think that's going to improve their game, when they are now fearing the potential temp ban or permanent ban just because of a mistake they've made?

This system is heavily flawed. The people who ceaselessly defend it display the same characteristics as members of a cult. Only those cult members will mindlessly attack me, because if you are going to allow for a system run by the players, the system itself should also be open to be modified by the players. Which, unfortunately, is not a reality.


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Puritys Disciple

Senior Member

11-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chick Tossta View Post
So.. whilst traversing across this forum I for- whatever reason- decided to peruse the "Tribunal" section.
It's truly disheartening that there is pretty much the same amount of downvotes for everybody and anybody who decides that they don't agree with the current system. There should never have been a justice system run by the same people who play the game.

Anybody I've seen even attempt to argue against this would-be Mitt Romney of the Tribunal "JohnnyOmega" has been smashed by downvotes and the most straight-backed, uptight, and robotic replies I've ever witnessed. The most common retort has been "^This guy has had a bad vote from the Tribunal therefore his opinion isn't worth reading". High horses, indeed.

First and foremost, you should not PUNISH somebody whom has 1/5 games warranting a PUNISH. This should be common sense. I bet almost everybody who reads these forums have encountered a game where no matter what sort of influence they've tried to place into the game they were in, they were getting a report whether they liked it or not. Personally, I've been reported by somebody for something as inconclusive as a First Blood. From being First Blooded, the individual made the decision that I was "bad", and then rallied the other team through the 'gift' of all-chat into reporting me at the end of the game. Defending myself gets me reported. Not saying anything gets me reported.

Now I'm not saying that there aren't people on the Tribunal that don't deserve a swift slap with a ban hammer. What I am saying (inb4 religious use of all of these kids' downvote button) is that there are people who end up on the Tribunal under false pretenses. I don't remember which thread I was on, but somebody was trying to express how the Internet as a whole is inhabited by a near infinite amount of personalities. There should not be repercussions just because somebody talks a little bit more crude than you're used to. You can't call the cops on somebody who cusses in front of you whilst behind a counter of some sort in the service industry. You shouldn't be allowed to report somebody just because they say "noob" once or twice. Further to this, the threat of a report should be reportable! How do you think that's going to improve their game, when they are now fearing the potential temp ban or permanent ban just because of a mistake they've made?

This system is heavily flawed. The people who ceaselessly defend it display the same characteristics as members of a cult. Only those cult members will mindlessly attack me, because if you are going to allow for a system run by the players, the system itself should also be open to be modified by the players. Which, unfortunately, is not a reality.
I've been wanting to write something like this for awhile now, but have been unable to articulate it the way I want, or not sure if I 100% agree.

But what I have noticed, is, it's pretty pointless to try to argue the flaws of the current system, as this forum appears to be deeply biased, or I am in the extreme minority. As I would speculate that this forum is commonly frequented by people actually doing tribunals, I would think that it is mor elikely a pro-tribunal or "cultish" culture twoards supporting it rather than even approaching on grounds of pointing out its flaws.

I get kinda fired up going against the grain though, probably why i still frequent this forum so much.


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cornchowdar

Member

11-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chick Tossta View Post
*Great stuff*

Agree completely. The thing is.. it will never change, because it saves Riot so much money.

The bigger problem is that it's resistant to change, because they need the free labor to process the reports.

Unfortunately, the most industrious users are generally the malevolent, sadistic, draconian enforcers that you see punishing people for exclaiming "wtf?!?", which is why any effort to improve the quality of the tribunal would result in a backed up system.


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DeathKiraX

Member

11-08-2012

Um no? I got my ban because of trolls. Someone Didn't like my build so they reported me, 3rd game, I got killed and two of my team yelled I was trolling and told the other team to report. Was it true? No but it doesn't mater. Multiple reports get you in the tribunal, but it isn't fair that troll reports also bring you into it. They look at one game, see one swear word and vote punish. No one seems to really take that into account. Someone has a bad game, The tribunal realizes that, that is why one game doesn't make you go to it. But then trolls spam report because they don't like how you're playing, and people ban you because of that only one game? yeah completely fair /sarcasm


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JohnnyOmega

Senior Member

11-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chick Tossta View Post
So.. whilst traversing across this forum I for- whatever reason- decided to peruse the "Tribunal" section.
It's truly disheartening that there is pretty much the same amount of downvotes for everybody and anybody who decides that they don't agree with the current system. There should never have been a justice system run by the same people who play the game.

Anybody I've seen even attempt to argue against this would-be Mitt Romney of the Tribunal "JohnnyOmega" has been smashed by downvotes and the most straight-backed, uptight, and robotic replies I've ever witnessed. The most common retort has been "^This guy has had a bad vote from the Tribunal therefore his opinion isn't worth reading". High horses, indeed.

First and foremost, you should not PUNISH somebody whom has 1/5 games warranting a PUNISH. This should be common sense. I bet almost everybody who reads these forums have encountered a game where no matter what sort of influence they've tried to place into the game they were in, they were getting a report whether they liked it or not. Personally, I've been reported by somebody for something as inconclusive as a First Blood. From being First Blooded, the individual made the decision that I was "bad", and then rallied the other team through the 'gift' of all-chat into reporting me at the end of the game. Defending myself gets me reported. Not saying anything gets me reported.

Now I'm not saying that there aren't people on the Tribunal that don't deserve a swift slap with a ban hammer. What I am saying (inb4 religious use of all of these kids' downvote button) is that there are people who end up on the Tribunal under false pretenses. I don't remember which thread I was on, but somebody was trying to express how the Internet as a whole is inhabited by a near infinite amount of personalities. There should not be repercussions just because somebody talks a little bit more crude than you're used to. You can't call the cops on somebody who cusses in front of you whilst behind a counter of some sort in the service industry. You shouldn't be allowed to report somebody just because they say "noob" once or twice. Further to this, the threat of a report should be reportable! How do you think that's going to improve their game, when they are now fearing the potential temp ban or permanent ban just because of a mistake they've made?

This system is heavily flawed. The people who ceaselessly defend it display the same characteristics as members of a cult. Only those cult members will mindlessly attack me, because if you are going to allow for a system run by the players, the system itself should also be open to be modified by the players. Which, unfortunately, is not a reality.

If you actually read the original post you would know why punishing for 1 punishable game out of five IS common sense.

If we pardon for it, then although the reported incidents are washed away from future Tribunal cases, they remain in the Riot staff records for manual audits.

We are not shown how many times a player has been pardoned despite having punishable incidents on their cases.

If we irresponsibly pardon players thinking that the punishable incidents on their cases are first time offenses or a similar train of thought, then the punishable incidents can pile up with the player never knowing that his/her behavior in those incidents is unacceptable in the community.

This becomes a snowball effect to the point at which the player piles up enough reported incidents to trigger a flag for manual audit from Riot auditors, who tend to be harsher with their judgements because they can see ALL reported incidents on a case file including the incidents not shown in the cases on the file.

This leads to a suspension all because the community kept granting pardons to the player despite punishable incidents being on the player's cases.

If the initial case had been a punish, then the player would have gotten a warning from the community and had a chance to properly reform, saving both him/herself from suspension and a lot of players that had to play in his/her punishable incidents a lot of grief.

THAT is why the original post IS logical and common sense.

Why pardon (a punishable incident) if it will lead to unnecessary suffering for both the accused and his/her victims?


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Tethin

Senior Member

11-08-2012

bump. Guys plz read this. He makes alot of good points the new gen of tribunal need to understand.


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Driln

Junior Member

11-08-2012

You are aiming for something that we can't expect from real life, so why try to enforce it in a video game? A perfect world, where everybody goes about being 100% happy and offended by nothing at all. The same argument could be said against you as all of your followers make against the people who disagree with the Tribunal - Were you unjustly treated on League and the person was pardoned? Your energy towards the subject suggests a personal agenda.

"Why pardon (a punishable incident) if it will lead to unnecessary suffering for both the accused and his/her victims?"

Well, because if that person truly deserves to reserve a harsher penalty then their actions will speak for themselves and their pattern of behavior will stay negative and "toxic". I've never played a game where the players were so naive as to think they'd never once hear or see something they didn't like. League of Legends, especially after achieving the "Most-Played-Game-In-The-World" thing, should have more than a good idea of what reality will be. If I jump on XBOX Live, I can't expect to not hear somebody swear. If I jump on any multi-player game on Steam, whether it's Counterstrike:GO or L4D or anything like that, I'm not _naive_ enough to think I won't read something which would be punishable on League of Legends. Or worse, see something.

The Tribunal's biggest flaw is that it's being enforced in a game which is solely PvP. The most competitive type of gaming, where it could be argued has the largest gratification at stake, is where they decide to censor the sort of behavior allowed on said game. The larger the competition, the more all of those things like "emotions running high" and all that comes into play. You are punishing people who react in the only way they can when they are frustrated. Why play a game that encourages you to win if you can't become passionate about it? Why should I log on at ALL if I can't invest at all. If you want to play a game to just burn time mindlessly, play Minecraft. If you're going to go and broadcast a Season 2 Finals and obtain insane viewer count and have everybody cheer and scream for their favorite teams and mind-boggling plays, DON'T restrict the players abilities to feel other emotions. That isn't anybody's right to govern. Especially not a one-trick-pony like you, JohnnyOmega.


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JohnnyOmega

Senior Member

11-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chick Tossta View Post
You are aiming for something that we can't expect from real life, so why try to enforce it in a video game?

"Why pardon (a punishable incident) if it will lead to unnecessary suffering for both the accused and his/her victims?"

Well, because if that person truly deserves to reserve a harsher penalty then their actions will speak for themselves and their pattern of behavior will stay negative and "toxic".

You are punishing people who react in the only way they can when they are frustrated. Why play a game that encourages you to win if you can't become passionate about it?

That isn't anybody's right to govern. Especially not a one-trick-pony like you, JohnnyOmega.
Considering the fact that more than 90% of millions of players manage to avoid getting cases in Tribunal, there's nothing unrealistic about the expectations of behavior in accordance with the Summoner's Code.

Why wouldn't we want to avoid giving someone the harsher penalty by sending them a simple email warning? If the player gets the warning, then he/she can reform sooner than later and as a result avoid getting so bad that he/she attracts manual suspension. This means that the punished player can become better behaved and many potential negative outbursts can be prevented (less future victims).

There are many, many ways to react when frustrated that don't involve degenerating into an exchange of insults and raging. There's a difference between being passionate and being a jerk.

Right to govern? Read the Terms of Service.


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JohnnyOmega

Senior Member

06-26-2013

I'm bumping this thread today because I see a thread on the front page (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3596334) where the OP might have the wrong idea of how Tribunal cases are punished. I hope this clarifies things for him/her and others.


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JohnnyOmega

Senior Member

07-05-2013

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3626481

There's some question in this thread about whether a certain situation is pardonable.

Look at it this way. The games you see on a case are a random sampling of relatively recent games and are not the entire picture of that player's behavior. Even if only 1 out of 5 games shown has an outburst of punishable behavior, the accused might never understand that it is punishable behavior if nobody sends him/her a warning about it. That's where Tribunal is supposed to come in. Clicking Pardon is like saying we won't punish if you do that in "some" of your games. How much is "some"? There are a lot of young people who play this game so "some" can easily get out of hand if we don't send the proper warnings beforehand.

Food for thought.