theory: harass > kill lane, reality: kill lane > all :(

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Valonor

Senior Member

09-13-2012

Hello.
I currently have an issue playing bot lane. I don't like playing the current meta kill lanes (like ezrael/graves/corki + Blitzcrank/Taric/Leona). However my winrate playing a kill lane myself is ~70% at 1700 elo. My winrate playing a defensive bot lane (I like ashe and vayne, janna and sona as supports) is only around ~45%. I duo queued a few matches with my friend (hes 2k elo) and the bottom laning seemed to be basicly the same (well, people are little better lasthitting, dodging skillshots and stuff, but still kill lanes dominate).
So my questions:
-which supports can counter these offensive supports (like my AD-carry picks vayne and I have to protect her versus lets say leona + corki, also need the reason -> so I have the right playstyle)?
-which AD-carries can counter these lanes? I would guess Sivir could be quite good versus blitzcrank and also versus all of the 3 mentioned AD-carries (spellshield)
-kill lanes snowball hard, what to do when a leona corki got double kill for some reason (like mistake/gank)?
-people say sustain > harass > kill > sustain lane, my experience is that the harass > kill lane just doesn't work -> can you give me an example for a harass lane beating a kill lane?

I guess I'm not alone with this issue. Any advice is welcome


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lllDadalll

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Senior Member

09-13-2012

Or don't be a sheep and start thinking outside the Meta


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Evolnemesis

Senior Member

09-13-2012

I stomped all over a graves/Leona kill lane with a Heimer/Varus harass lane... it was kinda funny how bad we beat them... well ok with Heimer its a sustain lane and a harass lane at the same time I guess... which I guess made it overpowered. It was really funny how bad we beat them though, I was towerdiving them and killing them and they couldn't farm for anything because we had them behind their tower from the first wave on. Jungler tried to gank twice and we killed him both times. Me and Varus both got fed hard (he got 5 kills and I took 2 where i had to finish them off with a chase/towerdive and rocket to get the kills).


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Not a Cobra

Senior Member

09-13-2012

Unfortunately, not long ago the metagame had;
Passive "Safe" AD Carry coupled with infinite sustain support.
ie;
Ashe + Soraka.
Caitlyn + sona.
and so on.

This meta was so difficult to play against and so anti-fun that it needed an even harder to counter, and even more anti-fun meta to form.

Enter the kill lane.

These days, supports like alistar, blitzcrank and leona. Champs with small heals, or no heals at all, but with lots of hard CC and damage.
The idea now, rather than to couple an AD carry with a support, it's much more effective to couple an AD carry with "Any CC bot that doesn't require gold to kill you"

Thus, there are a lot of decent supports viable in the new kill lane meta that weren't before.

I've had A LOT of success as a fiddle + Varus combo, the CC and magic damage counters people with high armour, and fiddlesticks needs very little gold early game;
Drain has a great base damage, fear is always 3 seconds so gold doesn't make a difference either way and Dread lowers enemy MR enough that your damage is actually pretty decent even with nothing but support items early.

If you don't like the Kill lane support meta, and really want to counter it, here are some options;

If you REALLY want to play a passive lane, you've only got a few options left.
Sivir, as you mentioned, is a great "Anti blitz" and she works well on other kill lane/wombo combo type champs as well, if you can time her shield.
As far as passive supports go; Janna is, as much as I hate to admit it (I dislike the unwarranted janna fandom, she's not amazing, she's "good" and no better) is one of the best passive supports. A good janna can almost always save herself, and usually her lane partner as well. But she requires quite a bit of skill to be really good at. Though timing your shields, slows and knockups right can be an easy way to guarantee farm for your carry.

However, if you want a slightly different play-style, try a "Threat" lane.
Pick a champ like vayne, with a support like blitz but don't play aggro.
Sit blitz in his bush and last hit. If the enemy gets aggresive, the combination of a blitz pull + knockup, coupled with the easy followup stun from condemn means you will (at the very least) take a huge chunk out of somebody's health.
If you can stay on your game, you can remain completely safe to farm, simply because the enemy is not able to bully you, and since you're playing defensive, it's hard for their jungler to gank, or for you to slip up and get overconfident.

Another strategy is to ward the enemy bush, and pick a champ like tristana or caitlyn (with the longer range) and use your range to attack the support hiding in the bush.
If it's an alistar, you can usually attack him from outside of headbut range.
If it's a blitzcrank, you can often bait out a fist, then you've got a solid 15 seconds of harass before he can use it again, leona is much the same.
Plus, caitlyn has the use of her traps to help prevent jungler ganks and trap advancing enemies.
Tristana has her (Slightly buggy) jump which can be a lifesaver if you can time it right.

And lastly, a bit of a "Cheese" as they say, you can pick a melee champ like fiora and a ranged, powerful, support like lux.
Rely on your support to be aggro, but able to engage yourself at a moments notice.
Think of it like a kill lane, but relying on your opponent underestimating you.
Most ranged AD lose out against a melee AD provided you get in range and don't get kited. So if your support can cc lock them, or they step too far forward for a CS, jump on them and hurt them enough to secure farm for yourself.


There are lots more suggestions, but really it's down to the player.
Try playing the champs you hate, and quickly you'll find yourself building up a list of champs you think "Dang, I hate laning against ____ as blitzcrank!"
Then go back and play _____ next time you see a blitz, chances are he'll hate it as much as you did.


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IonDragonX

Senior Member

09-13-2012

Best kill lane that I ever had was me on Shyvana and my buddy on Rumble (pre nerf).

We set all the minions on fire constantly and simply laughed at the coward RADC and 0CSsupport that we were laning against. They couldn't CC either one of us long enough to take us out and got destroyed when they tried. They couldn't even wait for us to run out of mana! (Ha!)


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Kandehbar

Senior Member

09-13-2012

Well just play to win. What ever works atm then do so and if you find something that works better, do it.

P.S. better buff fiora


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Not a Cobra

Senior Member

09-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IonDragonX View Post
Best kill lane that I ever had was me on Shyvana and my buddy on Rumble (pre nerf).

We set all the minions on fire constantly and simply laughed at the coward RADC and 0CSsupport that we were laning against. They couldn't CC either one of us long enough to take us out and got destroyed when they tried. They couldn't even wait for us to run out of mana! (Ha!)

You ended up as 2 melee characters against a lane that couldn't kite/cc you at range?
Either you got put against pretty bad players, or you got put against a bizarre lane comp.
an ashe + soraka could beat that lane, and that's not exactly a strong lane.


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Ups Pentakill

Junior Member

09-13-2012

I love to play Garen+Lux and Garen+Volibear with my bro, is OP as **** when you time your abilities right


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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

09-13-2012

define better or greater than


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IonDragonX

Senior Member

09-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Not a Cobra View Post
You ended up as 2 melee characters against a lane that couldn't kite/cc you at range?
Either you got put against pretty bad players, or you got put against a bizarre lane comp.
an ashe + soraka could beat that lane, and that's not exactly a strong lane.
I took flame breath first and Rumble took harpoon. So being 2 melee didn't really come into it. Both of us started armor and 5 pots. It was varus + leona who we were fighting and the leona was surprisingly squishy.


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