Nasus: Sheen or Bruta?

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SF Jumper

Senior Member

09-20-2010

I've been called a noob for building Brutalizer on Nasus over Sheen.
Is Sheen really better? I thought more Q's Per Second, ArPen, and some Dmg was better than this...


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Suelerium

Senior Member

09-20-2010

Sheen is very good on Nasus ; it helps hitting hard, improves dmg zone and builds into trinity force later.

Brutalizer may be good, but purely DPS, so it should not be a core item IMO. But it could be a viable option after sheen, boots and a good tank item, if you want to go DPS


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SF Jumper

Senior Member

09-20-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricklessabandon View Post
sheen adds 44 damage + an additional 2.8 per nasus level (including level 1) with its proc to your ss. so, in addition to the mana, you also get great damage versus minions. since nasus is trying his ****edest to farm up early game, he'll take what's best for farming (and that happens to be sheen).

brutalizer is amazing in its own right, but the armor pen and cdr don't make up for the superior farming stats of sheen.
Superior farming stats? CDR = faster Q farming. Brutalizer is better for farming unless you're bad at last hitting.
Also he doesn't need mana with either blue or yellow mp5 and smart mana usage. (Given, during a teamfight his mana becomes limited so Sheen has that)
Also I play him as an Anti-carry. Not tank or squishy dps. Bruta, GA, defensive boots, maybe Sheen after.

Also, the +ArPen helps with the added dps from his ult, but I guess you could argue Zeal is best for that.


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alsowikk

Senior Member

09-20-2010

First of all sheen is superior just due to the passive's synergy with your Q and the mana but it also cost less so it delays your tank items less and it scales just as well into end game.


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Benalicious

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Senior Member

09-20-2010

I play nasus a lot, and I build sheen, but honestly, brutalizer doesn't sound like a bad idea to me. I think rushing sheen is just a bad idea. Do you really need that 50 or so extra damage that sheen is going to give you on your SS to last hit? By the time you get it, you should already have 20-30 extra damage on your SS from minion kills anyway. Rushing sheen means you have to delay your first tank item, and the earlier you get that aegis or sunfire, the better off your team will be, imo. Besides, if you really do get it early enough for it to help out your farming, you either died or blue pilled pretty early. Neither are necessarily a good thing. (unless you have teleport, then maybe it's ok to bluepill.)

Brutalizer would give you more DPS, and Ghostblade's active would probably help you wade through everyone and get to that squishy in the back.

tl;dr: I actually think it's a decent idea, and I'll probably try it out.


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Benalicious

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Senior Member

09-20-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricklessabandon View Post
however, damage has its perks--your damage is the deciding factor in when a minion can be last hit. making that window larger means that you can last hit that creep sooner. since you are a melee champ, and good players will actively try to harass you out of last hitting, having the largest window possible is ideal. it's not about being good or bad about last hitting.

Definitely a good point. For me though, I typically get sheen after I have my level two boots and either aegis or sunfire cape. At that point, I honestly don't notice a huge difference in that little extra umph that sheen gives my SS. I'm probably going to give them both a try and see if I notice the difference, but I think it would be a mistake for people to call Jumper a noob just because he builds brutalizer. Since I'm usually actively pushing towers by the time I get sheen, instead of just last hitting, brutalizer would help bring them down faster than sheen because of the higher dps+ArPen.

Bottom line for me, brutalizer seems like it would make sense because I typically don't build sheen until near the end of the laning phase anyway. (and brutalizer is a cheaper item for a higher overall dps.) Again, I haven't tried it yet, but in theory, I think it might work pretty well.


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SF Jumper

Senior Member

09-20-2010

Yeah, thanks for the insight on that aspect of farming @Sheen, but if you can handle hitting in your lane without it, Bruta would be the better midgame *i do dmg--enemy carry fear me* item, right?


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malphismia

Senior Member

09-20-2010

Yes, you can hit in lane without it. It's called Siphoning Strike.

If I'm building tanky, I usually rush Aegis.
If I'm building DPS, I am stacking 2-3 Doran's blades, then Brutalizer.

But that's my build.


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Rekirts

Senior Member

09-20-2010

Actually not a bad idea. As someone said, you gain ~~ 50 dmg from Sheen, with useless mana and AP (not entirely, but thats not why you're building it...) and with the Brutalizer, you get 25 AD, 10 Armor Pen, and 10% CDR... That 10 armor pen deals more damage then 25 dmg against most armors... With the added bonus of CDR.

Intereresting. Someone mathcraft and see what values armor would have to be to get more from Sheen. gogo.

Edit: Isn't it more then 10 armor pen? If its anything more then I'm fairly certain brutalizer is MUCH superior.


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Benalicious

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Senior Member

09-20-2010

This has made me kinda curious, so I ran some numbers to see how things stack up.

For argument's sake, let's say you have Nasus at level 6 with level 2 SS w/ 30 extra damage from last hits. (this is assuming the stat gains on the website are still accurate) Sheen will add about 57 damage to his basic attack(71 at this point) + (50+30) from SS. That means his SS is hitting for around 208 per hit.

In the same scenario, a brutalizer is going to give you 176 damage on your SS, but when you take the armor penetration into account, it actually does 202 damage.

That's only 6 points difference on an item that is about 300g cheaper and also give you 10% CDR, AND gives you better raw DPS.

Now, it's true that sheen will keep scaling as your raw attack damage goes up, but the ArPen from brutalizer effects your raw damage+the extra damage as you level your SS and keep getting last hits.

Someone could double-check my numbers if they want, but I think they are right.

[EDIT] of course the raw damage would change when armor is taken into account, but they would scale percentage-wise. Basically, with the scenario I gave you, sheen give you a 3% boost to your damage, but I think would be outshone late game

[EDIT again]

at level 18 with SS hitting for an extra 100 damage from last hits, Sheen gives you around 430 damage and Brutalizer is approx 400. Keep in mind though, that the more last hits you get, the closer Brutalizer is going to come to Sheen, and Brutalizer gives you higher overall DPS. (though frankly, by the time you are level 18 you could just get them both)

Bottom line: I think I may have found an adjustment for my Nasus build.


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