@Riot - Letting LoL Mature

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Wu1fy54

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1scythe1 View Post
There was another post a handful of months ago on this very subject. Basically stating that riots nerf hand is to strong and it effects the game by stifling player creativity and innovation. Annnnnd it was buried. Riot doesn't give a **** is basically what I am saying. Good luck with the crusade though, you have my support.

See I agree with that, since I'm pretty sure I saw the post(s) you are referring too.

At the same time though, with Riot's nerf hand...

I don't mind nerfing champions I guess to be more in tune with a certain role, like in my mind, AP rengar is just not as viable as AD rengar, or tanky AD rengar....so Riot nerfs the AP, to stop the players going AP, since it generally ruins the game for people. Besides of course that ONE game where AP rengar would stomp.

I just wish I saw that role add or benefit in other lanes. like 2 top with a bruiser support and one bot. Idk. Just something different. I think they should look more into buffs and reworks with the new champions coming out. I wouldn't mind if they stopped for about 6months with new champs and just focused solely on role balancing, but allowing for flexibility with strats.

Still have janna support, not ap, but put her somewhere else.


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Slyverius

Senior Member

10-06-2012

Don't forget about Urgot. From invisible to 'S' Tier in competitive pick then nerfed to the ground. It's really a shame for Riot to intervene so quickly like they wanted to delete Urgot forever. Another example is Janna which is just plain nerfs w/o any buff beforehand. This is more like players vs Riot's hammer nerf


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Mayan Snipe Jock

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Senior Member

10-11-2012

Bump =)


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End of Shadows

Senior Member

10-11-2012

There are a lot of things to take into consideration, a lot of what we do see is what riot does, not what they don't do. There are a lot of things Riot doesn't touch because they let their players find out about it. A lot of strategy (from what I see watching games and streams) comes from the champions themselves. Look at the sustain support meta game, could other things work, yes but not as effectively and created a less active environment. Thus they nerfed that.

Atmas + Warmogs, was as Dyrus called it, the bruiser meta, it was a must, and got nerfed because it was a forced strat on to many champs. If we look at champs and strats, riot does seem to knee-jerk a lot of things, but with a large enough game, there are certain things that are seen quite quickly to be heading the game in a "bad" direction (as judged by riot). The support meta shift didn't pan out as well as it could have, it still showed riot that it was possible, and with such a meta, the champion pool would be lowered dramatically from its already low numbers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

That video actually shows a good example of the way that riot does balance. They have many strong champions, champions that are considered non-troll picks and many that are considered "S" and "A" class. These champions create a shift in how the meta works, yet they are not nerfed and considered balanced by most people. Yet you have trundle who is very well balanced yet still weak.

Also, the meta in itself is constantly changing, the overall meta won't change at all without a major overhaul because it is the best calculated gold income per player, but the intricacies are always changing. Look at how the Koreans have changed how games are played, quick towers, and fast pushes, making late game champions weaker, thus creating a different set of champions that are stronger, they haven't touched this strat at all. A lot of strats based around certain champions and spells are rarely touched unless Riot feels that it is needed, or may end the game in a "bad" spot.

There is also a lot of people who find good in what riot does with their fast paced nerfs and buffs (fast being relative) because Riot sees what is strong, and what is too strong quickly, many people don't want to have to deal with struggle because the other team was able to get a full "new meta" team, while yours is varied. Yah a counter strat is possible, but if takes something like SC2 which moves through strats at a faster pace 2 months to counter one strat (think it was SC2 you said that) how long will it stagnate LoL with relative OP'ness. (plus, while new strats are figured out, people will find new ways of making the original strat stronger and thus even harder to counter)

To put an end to this wall of text, Riot does a lot, but doesn't do a lot. Many of their actions they let the players figure out, but if they see something heading in a way they do not want it to head, they will quickly change it. The Dota's natures prophet example, why force the community to place auto-bans or lose to him for months and months, yah it shows he can be countered in one way, but outside of that one way, there is no real known way to beat Nature's Prophet is there? (unless this has changed, I don't play dota) this takes away from allowing player skill to win, in a more team fight based game like League, rather than winning because you have more counter champs, you win based on how your team reacts, and specific team comps can be countered.

(hope this isn't too rambly just finished a giant essay)


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Well Hungarian

Senior Member

10-11-2012

I don't think the problem is the pro players using these champs in creative ways. The problem is the average player watching the pros...then using the pro's strat against other average players.

When this happens you have thousands of 12 year olds on here crying for nerfs. As it is, most of the people that cry for nerfs seem like they have a hard time just remembering to breathe...let alone come up with an innovative counter to some of the things you see done in pro play.

At the end of the day, its the average player that is footing the bill for Riots growth. They have to make sure this keeps happening...


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Som Bo Dee

Senior Member

10-11-2012

This is a great idea. The Dota 2 example is an excellent way of showing that Riot shouldn't just put in knee jerk patches.


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Vrouge

Senior Member

10-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by End of Shadows View Post
The Dota's natures prophet example, why force the community to place auto-bans or lose to him for months and months, yah it shows he can be countered in one way, but outside of that one way, there is no real known way to beat Nature's Prophet is there? (unless this has changed, I don't play dota) this takes away from allowing player skill to win, in a more team fight based game like League, rather than winning because you have more counter champs, you win based on how your team reacts, and specific team comps can be countered.

(hope this isn't too rambly just finished a giant essay)
There are plenty of ways to counter Nature's Prophet my friend. Quelling blade, Batrider, Spirit Breaker, Bounty Hunter, Nightstalker, Tiny, Tinker, Wisp, Storm Spirit. You name it there are heaps of ways. And FYI he is no longer first pick first ban. His power comes from his immense global presence and ability to farm creeps like no other. However, he's extremely farm dependent and still susceptible to other global-presence heroes and ones who can burst him down, silence him etc.

Also, if you think that you will always win in Dota just because of certain combos I'd like to point you to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ldq1afiKQb8

Naga Siren sleeps the enemy team > Dark Seer vacuums them in (this can no longer affect heroes while in sleep) and Tidehunter ravages. Seems like a lost fight right? Nope... it took a split second of a reaction to turn the tide of the battle around as you can see.

Believe it or not skill actually matters in Dota, and just because you pick heroes to counter other heroes doesn't guarantee victory. Dota is no less of a team-fight oriented game than LoL is. You're giving LoL too much credit for requiring 'skill' to play and fail to see that Dota is in fact a more competitive game at the core.


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Raptamei

Senior Member

10-12-2012

The reason why Riot nerfs these odd new strategies is because they require specific champions. Only a few champions were viable roamers. Only a few champions were at the top during the poke meta. Etc. The problem with this, of course, is that many people won't own the exact champion that counters X or is absolutely required to do strategy Y.

Dota can get away with this, which results in some ridiculously hard counters where one side stands no chance - because you simply won't pick the counterable hero if the enemy can counter it without messing up their team comp. In LoL, after you spend $15 on a champion and skin, "you can't pick him because the enemy will pick Talon if you do and own you" (or conversely, "omg he picked that champion and I don't have Talon, gg") is not acceptable.


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Mayan Snipe Jock

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Senior Member

10-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrouge View Post
There are plenty of ways to counter Nature's Prophet my friend. Quelling blade, Batrider, Spirit Breaker, Bounty Hunter, Nightstalker, Tiny, Tinker, Wisp, Storm Spirit. You name it there are heaps of ways. And FYI he is no longer first pick first ban. His power comes from his immense global presence and ability to farm creeps like no other. However, he's extremely farm dependent and still susceptible to other global-presence heroes and ones who can burst him down, silence him etc.

Also, if you think that you will always win in Dota just because of certain combos I'd like to point you to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ldq1afiKQb8

Naga Siren sleeps the enemy team > Dark Seer vacuums them in (this can no longer affect heroes while in sleep) and Tidehunter ravages. Seems like a lost fight right? Nope... it took a split second of a reaction to turn the tide of the battle around as you can see.

Believe it or not skill actually matters in Dota, and just because you pick heroes to counter other heroes doesn't guarantee victory. Dota is no less of a team-fight oriented game than LoL is. You're giving LoL too much credit for requiring 'skill' to play and fail to see that Dota is in fact a more competitive game at the core.
Disruptor was such a good counter to him because it actually takes him out of the fight, the options you listed do help against him but they don't counter him because he is still sitting next to you dealing damage. Saying Gondar is a counter is a bit suspect also. Certain combos don't always win in DOTA and I never said that. I definitely never said league requires more or less skill to play either.

Dota is without a doubt a less team fight oriented game, the fact that pushing and hyper farmed carries make such a huge impact make that indisputable.

Dota may or may not be a more competitive game but it doesn't change the fact that league has a strange attitude towards balance. You're just trying to show of your Dota knowledge and downplay league with this post, it isn't relevant at all >.>


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Kiddalee

Senior Member

10-12-2012

People are leaving Summoner's Rift because of the stagnant meta, but Riot is forcing us to stick to it because they nerf meta-counters. That is not good business practice. Lucky for them a small percentage went over to the other maps instead of leaving outright.