(Guide)AP Shaco: Toggle the Clown!

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T0ggle

Member

12-24-2009

I'm glad you realize what i'm trying to say cesar


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Stimraug

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Senior Member

12-25-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrawnWonton View Post
Against total noobies, AP Shaco is decent.
Wrong. Against them it is overpowered and a slaughter. Maybe I should make a video or two for you about that 27/0/15 pwnage against noobs with ap shaco I had 19 hours~ ago?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrawnWonton View Post
It is fun luring people into JitB nests and watching them die.
It is fun to shiv people for periodic damage.
Bombing them with Hallucinate is entertaining.
However, against anyone with half a brain, he is pretty marginal. Doesn't really provide much help in team battles at all, aside from the occasional Shiv and 1 second fear.
In a team battle, when your team is scattered because of the fear, your carry/crazy caster has taken 60-80% dmg and you're seeing two shacos, there is not much time left, even to find the real shaco. Regrouping means walking -> taking dmg without dealing it, fighting separate means you're already losing the battle and only running might save your ass... except for that 700 dmg shiv in your back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrawnWonton View Post
Can't push a lane at all. You are left with autoattacks doing zero damage. Same against turrets. Totally useless.
Try planting a Jitb. See it dish out damage to minions and turrets, and give you some cash, while you're lasthitting another minion. A turret takes almost 1k damage from 1 good jitb midgame, on the top fearing enemy heroes and minions to give some more time to bash that tower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrawnWonton View Post
After you lure 1 person into a JitB nest, nobody on their team will ever fall for it again.
That's why you don't just make nests in brushes all the time. With AP Shaco you only need to plant 1-2 while you're jungling or laning. More is good, but that is very often enough for a kill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrawnWonton View Post
And in dynamic team battles, you never get more than a couple JitB's AT MOST. And usually peole only get hit w/ 2-3 shots before they are out of range
You're an assassin, not a heimerdinger who lives by his "pets". Besides, that 2-3 shots from a good 'ol Jitb can do about 500 dmg, or more, alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrawnWonton View Post
Relying on luring 1 and only 1 person into JitB range is sketchy.
One of the things t0ggle meant with being pro is that you don't have to lure them all day. You place the Jitbs so that you only have to wait for the second someone tries to gank you or steps in the wrong direction, while farming at the same time. Don't place all your fruits in one basket; instead but 1 jitb there, 1 here and someone will come, if they are placed correctly according to the enemy team's location.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrawnWonton View Post
And as soon as people put some magic resist on, your only nuke is reduced to near uselessness.
****, is it just me or did I see the word "Magic Penetration" somewhere in this thread?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrawnWonton View Post
I dunno, I see how he COULD be good, but you have to depend on your opponent's stupidity.
The flipside of the coin is that you depend on your own intelligence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrawnWonton View Post
AD Shaco meshes very well with all his skills. His passive screams it. 25% extra damage from behind is massive. Your clone does ridiculous damage while he is alive. You still benefit from JitB fear for ganks and team fights. Yay AP Shaco can Shiv for 600+. Then wait for 10 seconds before he can do it again. AD Shaco does that with autoattacks. Just 1 Deceive backstab equals AP Shaco's Shiv+Hallucinate, AND you are able to actually follow up with it.
One of the differences of AD and AP Shaco is that AD needs time to deal damage in team battles more than AP does. You NEED to get close, melee a target for many seconds, about 5 would be enough to do decent damage with all those mushy crits. Go AP, deceive in, plant Jitb, shiv, backstab, clone, run, control clone. A routine maneuver, takes 2-3 seconds. High burst damage, PLUS you're not left next to all their stuns, slows, snares, hits and nukes if you do it quick. Go AD, sure you're hitting hard, but you need to get to melee range to deal your damage and when you get stunned and nuked like hell there is no survival for a weak champion like Shaco. Assassin or melee dps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrawnWonton View Post
Being forced to rely on the very unreliable JitBs for a large portion of your damage is sketchy.
Not if you place them right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnronTheGreat View Post
bu-bu-but.... the guide has VIDEOS!!! Surely you saw the VIDEOS right?! Clearly, you aren't playing PRO enough. If you do well as AD, you must be playing NOOBS. I mean, if you can't get the teamfight to wait 30-60 seconds or more while you plant jitbs, use shiv 2 times in your opener, and fool them with your hallucinate, then clearly you aren't pro.

I feel wierd, i think i was just channeling someone....
Why don't you post a video about AD Shaco and stop trolling other people's threads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnronTheGreat View Post
If you look at the last few of my posts i'm being polite, and I really think you should tally up whos been insulting who. Thanks for the input, and you should probably look up the definition of trolling. All of my points since the begining have been valid.
The only person saying your points were valid is you. Now please go learn some plausibility and stop trolling.

Sorry to spam your thread t0ggle, I am just fed up with people who know better than everyone else, even if they're pathetic n00bs.


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Zenryo

Junior Member

12-25-2009

Thanks for the feedback Toggle, I will try AP Shaco as soon as possible.

If it matters, I do think that the ppl 'preaching' that an AP build is bad (or for noobs), should not do so in an overly aggressive way. This is, after all, a guid for AP Shaco, and as far as I can see, AP and AD are both totally viable, as it is with many heroes where different playstyles are possible (my favorite Sion comes to mind where I usually go AP for the burst, but I see many players going for the DPS Sion). It all depends on the team, on the opposing team, and mostly personal preference and playstyle I would say.
Instead of bashing AP, just make a nice guide about AD and then ppl can make up their own mind about which one is better, or rather, suits them better.


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Lord GiantR

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Senior Member

12-25-2009

T0ggle I'm just wondering is AP per level runes on glyphs better than Magic pen. Since I bought my Ap per level glyphs and have been doing rather well with them.


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PrawnWonton

Senior Member

12-25-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stimraug View Post
...
One of the differences of AD and AP Shaco is that AD needs time to deal damage in team battles more than AP does. You NEED to get close, melee a target for many seconds, about 5 would be enough to do decent damage with all those mushy crits. Go AP, deceive in, plant Jitb, shiv, backstab, clone, run, control clone. A routine maneuver, takes 2-3 seconds. High burst damage, PLUS you're not left next to all their stuns, slows, snares, hits and nukes if you do it quick. Go AD, sure you're hitting hard, but you need to get to melee range to deal your damage and when you get stunned and nuked like hell there is no survival for a weak champion like Shaco. Assassin or melee dps?
...
The issue here, and I believe I made it pretty clear in my earlier post, is that JitB is very unreliable when there is more than 1 target in range. In a team battle like you described, you have absolutely zero control over who it is going to target. IF it decides to shoot your squishy target for a full 5 seconds, and they stand right next to it for the full duration, then yes that is decent damage. But the chances of that happening are almost infinitely zero. And since JitB is a major source of AP Shaco's damage, depending on it for your "burst damage" output is sketchy at best.

The scenario you described: Team battle, you pick your target. Deceive in, plant JitB, Shiv them, then backstab, then run away and control your clone.

Damage breakdown: JitB damage to your target - very high probability of no damage at all. Shiv = 500-700'ish. Backstab = 200'ish. Control clone = while it is alive you auto attack for like 50 or less damage. IF they are dumb enough to even bother attacking it, you have a chance at doing 600-1000'ish damage. Very high chance people at this point will just ignore it totally since they know it does no damage while alive at all. Not to mention that you are every bit as vulnerable as AD Shaco if you Deceive in and backstab. That puts you right "...next to all their stuns, slows, snares, hits and nukes..." which you are trying so hard to avoid as AP Shaco in the first place.

So total you just did about 1300-1900 damage assuming you connected with your Hallucinate bomb at some point. Now you have to sit around for 10 seconds waiting on your Shiv to cooldown, and 75 seconds for your clone.

This has been my experience with AP Shaco. If you can isolate a single target to take full JitB damage, it is pretty good. But it is too unreliable for my tastes. To each his own I suppose.

@TOggle: I have been civil in all my posts, while you have repeatedly insulted me time and time again in a very condescending manner. I asked honest questions, I shared my experiences, and asked for advice, all of which are more than appropriate in a thread discussing HOW to play a character. Your incoherent posts are nothing more than name calling and flaming, all for the gratification of your massive ego.


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Knuckle

Member

12-25-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by T0ggle View Post
(This Guide is for pro's, if you can't get anything other then killsteals your bad, if you can't bomb people with hallucinate right your bad, if you can't jitb shiv, have them get feared and shiv again your bad, if you can't do well in a teamfight with this build your bad, if you can't bait anyone into your turrets your bad. Don't post stupid comments directed to how much better AD shaco is because i'm getting sick and tired of having to tell you why AP is better and why your bad.)

It has come to my attention that my buddys and people that play with me or against me have been asking me to teach them how to play shaco well.
So in this guide i'll be posting my skill path, item build, summoner spells, masteries, runebook and extra thoughts, but I will not be posting his Bio or skill tooltips because I feel that is a big waste of time.(For those of you who wish to know, shaco is my main.)

With that being said here is the skill path I have chosen
1.jack in the box
2.two shiv poisen
3.two shiv poisen
4.decieve
5.two shiv poisen
6.hallucinate
7.two shiv poisen
8.jack in the box
9.two shiv poisen
10.jack in the box
11.hallucinate
12.jack in the box
13.jack in the box
14.decieve
15.decieve
16.hallucinate
17.decieve
18.decieve



My item build consists of
regrowth pendant > philosophers stone (Late game sell this for a Haunting Guise)
boots of speed
mejai's soulstealer
sorcerer's boots
abyssal scepter (The Hybrid side of things would suggest you to buy lichbane instead)
zhonya's ring
banshee for survival or lichbane for more damage and speed. (if you already have lichbane, try infinity edge)
sell philosphers stone > get what ever suits you, hp regen, armor, etc.



Summoner spells
Ignite - people really underestimate this spell, at level 18 it deals nearly 500 damage, wich is a lot considering it can save you the trouble of running after someone early to late game. make sure you take your level and calculate the damage ignite will do before you use it, or make sure they have around 100hp or less exactly so that its in the bag.
(off thoughts, make sure they use their heal first before you waste ignite on accident, if you don't know if they have heal or not, go ahead and use it then, they might just forget they have heal.)
Heal - Really I only suggest this to noobs that need healing fast instead of over a period of time, not calling you a noob persay but i'm saying if your a noob shaco.
Rally - if your a skilled player and have rally masteries choose this over heal, it can really boost your ap late game and the healing your team needs to match.

Masteries - 21/0/9(the 9 in utility can be spent in defense, doesn't matter really)
3 deadlyness
1 archmage's savvy
4 sorcery
1 burning embers
1 archaic knowledge
3 sunder
3 brute force
1 improved rally
3 lethality
1 havoc
~
3 perseverence
1 good hands
4 awareness
1 utility mastery



Runebook
Marks 9 "Greater Mark of Insight" +0.95magic penetration each = 8.55!
Seals 9 "Greater Seal of Furor" +0.87Critical damage each = 7.83!
Glyphs 9 "Greater Glyph of Insight" +0.57magic penetration each = 5.13 !
Quintessences 3 "Greater Quintessence of Insight" +1.89magic penetration each = 5.67!
Our Total effect = +19.35magic penetration and +7.83Critical damage!



Early game tips
With jack in the box handy, go to any golem spot and post 4 turrets, then lure the golem with an attack to your turrets and post a rally, you may need to post a 5th turret after your 4 are dead. with this buff in hand go forth to your lane may it be top or bottom I don't usualy go mid, post some jack in the boxes strategicly.

Mid game tips
get philosophers stone as soon as possible to maximize its gold gain efficiency and get enough kills to get mejais soulstealer, also try to gank more often to help your team while getting mejai's passive increased. continue to kill golem as much as you can so that you can post jack in the boxes as much as you want.

Late game tips
Utilitze massing jack in the boxes stradegicly so that you can bait enemys into a solo gank. use decieve to run towards their base not the other way around, enemys normaly always go towards your base when chasing you, so if you teleport behind them, they end up running around aimlessly like idiots.

Here are some Screenshots i've put together to give you an idea on were to put those jack in the boxes. http://www.xfire.com/profile/farrisj/screenshots/

Video gameplay
Getting the Golem buff early on in the game -
As blue team http://www.xfire.com/video/18ff37/
As purple team http://www.xfire.com/video/1ab04a/
More will come....

Extra thoughts - Best combos with shaco are pro Fiddlesticks and/or amumu, fiddlesticks offers you double fear and his 16magic pen aura passive, while amumu offers 20magic pen passive on damage and stun/fear. But remember, do not and I cannot stress this out enough, do not duel stealth in any game ever. Learn from experience, if oracles can see jack in the boxes and your decieve, just imagine how useless 2 stealth players would be.
As for my reasons why AP shaco is better then AD, AP deals more damage then AD shaco if pulled off correctly.
AP shaco deals nearly 700+shiv, 1200+hallucinate and 300+jitb damage, going straight to their hp because of magic pen.(you do Increased damage if they hit negative magic resist, taking up to 20% more damage)
AD shaco deals(If you get up to 400attack damage)900decieve, 600shiv, 600hallucinate, 125jitb, depending on if you have 50% crit damage runebook BUT shiv and hallucinate are reduced by half or more because you have no magic pen, and decieve+auto attacks are reduced by 50% if the enemy has 100+armor and decieves can be dodged.
Spells cannot be dodged.(hallucinate, shiv)

If you liked this guide take a look at my other guides -
Nidalee_
http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board...ad.php?t=37420
First attempt using this guide: 12/3/5 . Major props haven't played shaco in literally months.

This is my guide on kayle give a hola back toggle =)
http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board...ad.php?t=33918


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T0ggle

Member

12-26-2009

@Stimraug spam my thread all you wish, your opinion made a point and you answerd many of the questions that I was to tired to do myself.

@lordgiant in no way do I suggest you get any type of ap runes, you need magic pen because with a full magic pen runebook you round off to 20 leaving early game players 10-15magic resist and negative 5-10magic resist(taking increased magic damage) when you get sorcerer's boots.

@prawnwonton
1.Even against a tank a jitb dealing 300damage is severly painfull, heres the truth to the whole scenario. When you plant a jitb in the bushes it doesn't start attacking them till they reach touching the bushes and by the time fear is over they have already got 2 hits then, then by the time they leave range its already got 4 hits in. So lets just say I have 300jitb damage, I put 3 boxes in a bush, in a triangler shape to way they get feared twice because ones behind the other wich means, as soon as a tank gets near the bushes they get feared for .5seconds(if you don't believe that, you obviously don't know how fast .5seconds is)then get feared yet again increasing the fear to 1.25 making the full fear length 1.75seconds, this means that 2 boxes are going to get 5hits in because they are very close to the champion. lets add 2boxes dealing 300damage 5times at 1500x2=3000+ 1box dealing 300damage x4times =1200+3000=4200.
what kind of tank has more then 3500hp? not very many, in most games they make it to about 3k in hp, making this method even a tank dropper.

2.In a team battle that is not my scenario, I NEVER backstab people unless I know for a fact their team isn't just waiting to get me after I backstab or if i'm chasing an enemy away and I know 1 decieve crit is going to finish them off.
I normaly shiv people before they even get near us for a 5v5 fight allowing us to have the advantage on team HP, then we tend to lure them to bushes if we are on the aggresive and if they are attacking our turrets, turrets basicly count as a tank and half a person so if 4 of our guys let out on them while our turret tank 3 of them are going to drop fast, as soon as they attack the tower I tend to decieve over a wall shiving the nearest enemy thats going to take the most damage from it, hallucinate, jitb behind the towers melee attackers so they get feared when they run back, then run back towards their base because normaly 2-3people tend to run after me at this point allowing me to use my hallucinate to follow at a distance to bomb one when he dies or runs out of timer. but this isn't my only scenario, I also tend to hallucinate before the fight happens at least 15seconds before so I can count to 20 have him run in and suicide before they get a chance to hit him!

3.your total amounts to 1900damage because you can't get over 4k damage as an ap shaco, not even against noobs you can't because you are infact a noob that blames your fail with AP shaco on my guide because its to hard for you to master.

4.You have in NO WAY been civil in any of your posts, and my ego is only directed towards the words you say that in every way insult my guide.
Do I literaly have to qoute you on this? seriously? ok fine then.
"Against total noobies, AP Shaco is decent"
"However, against anyone with half a brain, he is pretty marginal"
"Totally useless."
"I dunno, I see how he COULD be good, but you have to depend on your opponent's stupidity"
And calling every point I try to make sketchy.
I'm sorry but Didn't stimraug qoute you on these? ok then i'll qoute you on some others
"Maybe because I've never seen any AP Shaco do anything useful other than killsteal"
"Excuse me, other team, could you just kinda hang out for 3 minutes while I plant my boxes? KTHKX."
"That attitude rather defeats the purpose of a 'guide"
Wich btw how can I help you with my guide when your to ignorant to accept any answers I give you with a simple thanks, the constant insults are not helping your arguement on my so called EGO, here are more qoutes from you insulting my guide.
"IF they are total idiots, they will stand around within Shiv range "
"get-the-other-team-to-****-around-for-45-seconds-while-you-place-JitBs"
"But if all you are going to do is say how "PRO" you are, and how "noob" anyone is that asks legitimate questions about the GUIDE that you wrote, don't bother."

You are in fact an ignorant punk ass little kid that blames his own problems with ap shaco on me and my guide. Everytime you ask a question you smartass me with an insult towards my posts, do you not see what you are saying here?
Just by saying that AP shaco only works against noobs with half a brain is by far the worst insult you can say, AP shaco does more then that but you wouldn't know because you've never faced off against a pro. so in your opinion, you face off against noobs even against noobs you fail as AP shaco.


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Stimraug

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-26-2009

Now all that said, can we finally have only constructive talk here, no flaming, no trolling, no bull****?

Starting.... NOW!


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dreamgame

Senior Member

12-26-2009

I've tried both ap and ad shaco and I've to say neither one of them suck (as much as both side claim each other to be). Each one of them has it's own strength, but similar weakness. For starting, pulling off first blood as an ad shaco is real important or at least a kill cause you need the cash while for ap you need golem buff. Chances are, getting the golem buff is more secured as you hit level 2 you may harass your opponent with two shiv like crazy while first blood is harder to pull (though not THAT hard but yes there is always a counter move for both) Early games tells you a lot about how the game is going to be. Though one thing that I didn't like about ap is two shiv delay cause while the opponent is running away there's nothing I can do to damage him enough to kill him so I have to wait for the cool down. The damage burst is pretty impressive once you get soulstealer with max stack and zhonya ring, but to get there requires some good team play. As for ad shaco, we all know shaco can't tank and he's real squishy doesn't matter ap or ad. His hp goes down real fast so you have to play smart using jitb and illusion to your advantage. It's pretty hard to support some damage for your team while you're squishy but since you're ad, you have to do it somehow. In comparison to item building pace, from my own experience ad shaco builds up much faster compared to ap but at the end it boils up almost the same except, ap shaco is more of a help in team fights. The problem with ad shaco is once he's shut down early/mid game, it's hard to get up and when that happens to you, it becomes 5v4 and when you try to help and keep dying, you're a liability. While ap shaco, you may still carefully get golem buff when you need it and just harass with jitb+two shiv. It's alot more risk with ad shaco compared to ap. One more important thing is it really depends on your teammates. Both build have it's own pros and cons but they both depends on your teammates as in what characters are they using or how do they do early/mid game (pretty much how it works for any characters really)

In conclusion I pretty much think that both build are almost similar as to what they have to offer. You may pull off some crazy amount of kills with both builds, you may also carry the team to victory. But I would say if you're playing among the experienced it's harder to fool them. So for solo queues I'd recommend ad shaco but if you have your own premade I'd recommend ap. Why? Because item build pace for ad shaco is faster and in solo queues, the longer the game is the harder it's going to be be for you to carry the team. But if you're going with a premade (knowing how the MM works) you'll be more of a help as an ap.

Though there is one thing that I'm still not quite sure yet (still trying to investigate this). I mainly play as ad shaco (since I don't have my own perma premade :P) and with ad shaco it's real easy to pull off kills and it's fast too but at the same time the golds are mainly directed to you. Now, you're the one with the killer equip but your opponent is a tower hugger (especially ONLY when you're reported MIA). This is a big *****. Because
tower hugging = game drag.
Late gank = game drag and opponent gets closer to your equip level.
Fail gank = game drag and opponent gets close to your equip level.
Now that previously you've eat up most of the golds, the time stalls causes your enemy to have close enough equip to destroy you and also better equip compared to your team since you've hogged the kills. Now they're gonna stick together and start raping but since you're squishy they'll rape you first and with a yi in their team, this is going to get worse cause yi don't really need to be fed, and late game is a good thing for yi. Cause while you're busy taking down a tower with your team, their team will defend that tower to buy more time for their yi for his bd-project.

@T0ggle
Overall awesome guide just that I'd like to add, for new players, if you have no runes and barely any masteries, bring along smite spell. 4 jitb and the fifth during golem isn't enough and since golem likes to walk away and heal if your jitb is a little too far. I was playing with a friend who's new so I didn't want to have those high levels against us since she's new as that'd be a bad experience for her so I created a new account and went for this build, good thing I had smite with me. Changed it last few seconds :P


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Sad Faced Panda

Senior Member

12-26-2009

Pro tip: pro's don't need guides.

Also, if you're controlling your pets without alt clicking then 'your bad'.