Odd Laning idea...

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XCodes

Senior Member

09-03-2012

Let's say that at about the 10-minute mark, the Support and Top/Mid Lane champs were to swap positions?

Support would go to lane and farm for a few minutes to get an Aegis or something. Other lane would work with the ADC to deny the enemy ADC, get kill gold, and take tower.

Would obviously need specific champs, although could allow for a few more interesting Supports to play since they'll get a little gold.


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Lethadind

Senior Member

09-03-2012

The problem with this is that the support's gold does little for the team, while the carries' gold does far more.

For example - a BF Sword and a Vamp scepter cost about the same as an Aegis (a little less, actually), but go much further in terms of output than Aegis does. Aegis provides a small amount of damage, armor, and MR. It's useful, but not as useful as the wards that the support is spending 75g a pop for. A single ward can net your entire team 2375 gold by catching an enemy team out of position and ready for an initiation. This may only happen from one ward during the entire match, but there's no way you've spent even 1500 gold on wards (20 wards). Therefore the support stays in lane and grabs cs while the ADC is away, but otherwise lets all the other champs that scale much better with gold grab it.


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TVPMike

Senior Member

09-03-2012

The point of a support is having a Champion who can still have an impact on a game without getting much gold. That is why Jax support, Darius support, etc, are never seen in competitive gameplay.


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Zeikei

Senior Member

09-03-2012

TBH, supports should "steal" a small amount of CS if the AD isn't in a position to get it. Although, judging when this is can be a bit tough, and some AD's will always rage their support if they take any CS.

Gold runes/masteries along with objective gold should be enough, typically if you don't think you'll be fighting in lane, you'll take max gold per 10, and will make money that way, and if you do fight, you will go for more tankiness and get extra income from kills/assists...

Overall, the current supports don't need a solo lane at any point if they play it smart, and they'd also probably die to the other top laner if they get aggressive.


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Sereg Anfaug

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Senior Member

09-03-2012

The support will be at a huge disadvantage to the farmed and built opposing top lane, and the top will now be starved of farm, or competing for it with the adc. Interesting idea, but in practice not so useful.


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XCodes

Senior Member

09-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lethadind View Post
The problem with this is that the support's gold does little for the team, while the carries' gold does far more.

For example - a BF Sword and a Vamp scepter cost about the same as an Aegis (a little less, actually), but go much further in terms of output than Aegis does. Aegis provides a small amount of damage, armor, and MR. It's useful, but not as useful as the wards that the support is spending 75g a pop for. A single ward can net your entire team 2375 gold by catching an enemy team out of position and ready for an initiation. This may only happen from one ward during the entire match, but there's no way you've spent even 1500 gold on wards (20 wards). Therefore the support stays in lane and grabs cs while the ADC is away, but otherwise lets all the other champs that scale much better with gold grab it.
Seriously? You're delusional. Aegis is a ****ing amazing item, and if I could give any one team member 2k gold for one item, it'd absolutely be for an Aegis over BF Sword + Vamp Scepter.

Also, why are you talking about Support taking ADC gold? Support would cover another lane while ADC and Top/Mid pushed Bot and took tower. Since ADC and another farmed champ would have a significant gold/XP advantage over the enemy ADC + Support, it would really make things difficult for the enemy team in bot, and the game is still early enough that certain supports would be difficult to kill in top/mid.

Also, the Support doesn't need to get aggressive in-lane. Tanks can just freeze the lane next to the tower and disable anyone that gets close, while ranged supports just use their skills to poke/survive. 1v1 tower dive without minion support, even as a farmed champ since we're still talking late lane phase, is not likely to succeed.


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Cenerae

Senior Member

09-03-2012

The support can farm in midgame if needed, when laning is over.

Trying to give your support a solo lane in which they're going to be underlevelled (in comparison to the opponent), underfarmed...and shoving your solo in a duo lane fighting over cs with the carry...is not going to work. Even if they don't get completely destroyed in seconds, they're going to be unable to trade or farm safely at all.

Aegis is a nice item, but it's not worth wrecking your laning phase for it.

It seems to me you vastly underestimate just how badly disadvantaged a support would be in a solo lane in the situation you describe...can you imagine what's going to happen if you put a lvl 6 Sona up against a lvl 8-9 Cassopeia for example? Or a lvl 6 Janna against a Darius in top lane? Zoned, permanently. Get in range of minions and die. Tower hugging only gets you so far, and it's a total waste of the solo lane because your support doesn't even really NEED items in the first place. That's why they're supporting.


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XCodes

Senior Member

09-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cenerae View Post
It seems to me you vastly underestimate just how badly disadvantaged a support would be in a solo lane in the situation you describe...can you imagine what's going to happen if you put a lvl 6 Sona up against a lvl 8-9 Cassopeia for example? Or a lvl 6 Janna against a Darius in top lane? Zoned, permanently. Get in range of minions and die. Tower hugging only gets you so far, and it's a total waste of the solo lane because your support doesn't even really NEED items in the first place. That's why they're supporting.
You wouldn't send Sona against Cass. Seriously, don't just throw out random matchups when I already bring up the caveat that it depends on matchups whether or not you might do this.

Also, Janna will have a Philo Stone, so how does Darius even get into melee with her? No gap close, his pull is out-ranged by Janna's Q and W, both of which will be ready when needed, and Janna will just be plain faster. Sure, Darius isn't going to care one way or another about Janna's damage, but he's not going to be able to zone her out that easily, either. Not with one short-range skillshot pull being the only thing he has that even gets Janna in trouble.

Besides, accepting a disadvantage in one lane to get an advantage in another one can be a good deal, depending on the lane. Again, this isn't something you'd just mindlessly do, but rather do with the purpose of creating an overall advantage. Darius in the above scenario can more-or-less free farm, but the other team's ADC/Support combo is going to be pushed under tower constantly, and the tower is going to go down really fast (again, depending on the combo they have).


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thepantsparty

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Senior Member

09-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by XCodes View Post
Let's say that at about the 10-minute mark, the Support and Top/Mid Lane champs were to swap positions?
The support would promptly get crushed by the enemy top/mid who already have a couple of damage items.


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Cenerae

Senior Member

09-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by XCodes View Post
You wouldn't send Sona against Cass. Seriously, don't just throw out random matchups when I already bring up the caveat that it depends on matchups whether or not you might do this.

Also, Janna will have a Philo Stone, so how does Darius even get into melee with her? No gap close, his pull is out-ranged by Janna's Q and W, both of which will be ready when needed, and Janna will just be plain faster. Sure, Darius isn't going to care one way or another about Janna's damage, but he's not going to be able to zone her out that easily, either. Not with one short-range skillshot pull being the only thing he has that even gets Janna in trouble.

Besides, accepting a disadvantage in one lane to get an advantage in another one can be a good deal, depending on the lane. Again, this isn't something you'd just mindlessly do, but rather do with the purpose of creating an overall advantage. Darius in the above scenario can more-or-less free farm, but the other team's ADC/Support combo is going to be pushed under tower constantly, and the tower is going to go down really fast (again, depending on the combo they have).
Janna has a philo. How does Darius get into melee? He doesn't, she can kite him. How does Janna get near the creeps with Darius zoning her? She doesn't, because if she comes into lasthit range she dies or has to kite for dear life. How does Janna get farm like this? She doesn't, because she's been maxing her shield for support purposes, rather than her tornado for farming.

Accepting a disadvantage in one lane to gain an advantage is one thing, but MAKING a disadvantage in one lane to NOT gain an advantage in another. There is simply no way that you would benefit from forcing your support up against a solo laner.

Seriously, I don't think you've thought this through properly. Aegis is not worth screwing your solo and support like that, even if your support isn't somehow going to get kicked to the curb due to item and level disadvantage.

If you want your support to farm, do it once laning is over. This is when edge-case supports like Lux and Orianna do their farming, so they can grab some cheap AP items and remain helpful.


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