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@ Riot - Some basic Nasus tweaks that may help

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exe3

Senior Member

02-06-2013

Quote:
Statikk:
No, but interesting things will be happening for him next patch.

Could you guys not buff the OP champion? He's honestly sleeper OP, he was OP before the last range of buffs all that time ago. You don't even need to farm his Q for him to be broken. Either that or i'm the most amazing player in the world with him or something. :/


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NateKiller

Senior Member

02-06-2013

Quote:
A2ZOMG:
Are you trying to disagree with me? Because if you are, you better have a very good reason for it, because I know I am right, and I am endlessly annoyed by all the uneducated people who constantly whine about Nasus having a bad laning phase and needing buffs to not be easily abused when in reality, Nasus is just logically speaking a ridiculous laner.


I disagree. His laning is in no way "rediculous". While I agree that he can atleast hold his own when laning against most champs, you are basically walking on eggshells hoping the jungler doesn't camp and dive you. Jungler camping top lane hurts Nasus more than anyone. Sure, he does beat Darius and some others in lane. But any type of help what so ever will swing that matchup so badly that he can't even return to lane.

Do not talk as if Nasus is this unstoppable force in lane. It's simply not true. The entire early game he is at best hoping to not die and not need to help his team mates.

Also, do not complain that Nasus is some toxic matchup just because you don't like it. So what he's a niche champ with a unique playstyle? He's also one of the least played champs in the game. Is it really that big of a problem for you? I personally love his playstyle just because of how different it is.


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A2ZOMG

Senior Member

02-07-2013

Nasus is one of my most played champions, and I have analyzed the champion very carefully. I am not suggesting Nasus is unstoppable by any means. Being a strong laner has nothing to do with this, although I do believe the nature of Nasus's laning deserves to be highlighted, because Riot evidently doesn't understand what they're doing when buffing Nasus.

One of the other reasons why Nasus is a ridiculous laner is not only is he hard to kill 1 on 1, he amplifies ganks extremely well. So yeah, you can complain that ganks are annoying. But to be frank, being overextended against a Nasus is RIDICULOUSLY scary.

Laning against Nasus is fundamentally a no win situation if he has decent jungler support. Either you're forced to let him farm because harassing him actually makes him harder to kill 9 out of 10 times when you inevitably push lane, or if you try to harass him, you're put in a position where you are easily ganked and killed. And usually he'll beat you in a war of attrition, unless your name is Rumble or Teemo. Screw those champions anyway, nobody likes laning against them. The fact that they actually beat Nasus 1 on 1 should be considered an accomplishment if anything.

I do believe Nasus's playstyle is in fact toxic by design. This doesn't mean I don't love the champion and think he's fun to play. I think on the other hand he's actually very unfun for most people to play against if he's played correctly, because there's next to no counterplay for beating him 1v1 if he plays lanes correctly simply because his sustain is mathematically obscene.

I've dominated countless matchups with Nasus which I couldn't have done with any other champion and surprised many people with how supposedly skilled I am with Nasus, when honestly I am more inclined to believe I am really not particularly skilled and that Nasus himself is actually just inherently insane as a laner. Not many champions can take nearly as much abuse as Nasus, or for that matter GAIN HEALTH while tanking creep waves. When we are considering that he's getting a lot of mana cost reduction buffs, which will primarily buff his laning phase, I am extremely doubtful this is healthy for the game. Nasus as he is already is very difficult to lane against, and the primary counterplay against him is mostly indirect. We don't need more in-game excuses to trash talk about why Nasus can't carry midgame or people whining "omg you suck because you can't shut down Nasus" when in fact people just have to accept Nasus is strong early, awful mid, godlike lategame. These kinds of buffs I can really only see just more making people mad when they don't really do much to legitimately address Nasus's issues midgame (Wither buff may or may not help, we'll see), and making more people frustrated when a supposedly "bad" earlygame champion stomps them in lane.

Nasus in a way is like Darius, in that he embodies certain aspects of laning to such an extreme that many champions actually don't really have an answer to what he does if he does it correctly. A lot of people consider Darius very frustrating to play against because he's impossible to outtrade. Well to be frank, my observation is that Nasus can be almost equally frustrating for most people to play against because he's impossible to outsustain. A well-played Nasus generally can't be zoned away from farming, and this is problematic when he has the potential to outscale all champions in the game. So again, laning against Nasus is fundamentally a no-win situation for a lot of champions, where attempting to deny him more often than not actually just makes it easier for him to farm, meaning in order to shut him down, you have to actually let him farm safely early, and hope your jungler combo is better. Which goes back to my point that if Nasus has proper jungler support, there basically is no real counterplay to directly shutting him down in lane. I mean, Darius is more easily ganked than Nasus. Doesn't mean people don't still hate playing against him.

What Nasus honestly worries about more is his mid lane feeding. Ganks can be prevented with wards, and actually it can be extremely difficult to gank Nasus when his playstyle inherently promotes him freezing lane near turret and building loads of durability. It's much more difficult for Nasus to save teammates earlygame, and the majority of games I lose with Nasus are typically ones where the other team specifically gets their mid lane really fed.


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IS1b7b17a2e4f03260b1f79

Senior Member

02-07-2013

Sure, buff Nasus while other champions are basically dead. RIP TRyndamere


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NateKiller

Senior Member

02-07-2013

Quote:
A2ZOMG:
Nasus is one of my most played champions, and I have analyzed the champion very carefully. I am not suggesting Nasus is unstoppable by any means. Being a strong laner has nothing to do with this, although I do believe the nature of Nasus's laning deserves to be highlighted, because Riot evidently doesn't understand what they're doing when buffing Nasus.

One of the other reasons why Nasus is a ridiculous laner is not only is he hard to kill 1 on 1, he amplifies ganks extremely well. So yeah, you can complain that ganks are annoying. But to be frank, being overextended against a Nasus is RIDICULOUSLY scary.

Laning against Nasus is fundamentally a no win situation if he has decent jungler support. Either you're forced to let him farm because harassing him actually makes him harder to kill 9 out of 10 times when you inevitably push lane, or if you try to harass him, you're put in a position where you are easily ganked and killed. And usually he'll beat you in a war of attrition, unless your name is Rumble or Teemo. Screw those champions anyway, nobody likes laning against them. The fact that they actually beat Nasus 1 on 1 should be considered an accomplishment if anything.

I do believe Nasus's playstyle is in fact toxic by design. This doesn't mean I don't love the champion and think he's fun to play. I think on the other hand he's actually very unfun for most people to play against if he's played correctly, because there's next to no counterplay for beating him 1v1 if he plays lanes correctly simply because his sustain is mathematically obscene.

I've dominated countless matchups with Nasus which I couldn't have done with any other champion and surprised many people with how supposedly skilled I am with Nasus, when honestly I am more inclined to believe I am really not particularly skilled and that Nasus himself is actually just inherently insane as a laner. Not many champions can take nearly as much abuse as Nasus, or for that matter GAIN HEALTH while tanking creep waves. When we are considering that he's getting a lot of mana cost reduction buffs, which will primarily buff his laning phase, I am extremely doubtful this is healthy for the game. Nasus as he is already is very difficult to lane against, and the primary counterplay against him is mostly indirect. We don't need more in-game excuses to trash talk about why Nasus can't carry midgame or people whining "omg you suck because you can't shut down Nasus" when in fact people just have to accept Nasus is strong early, awful mid, godlike lategame. These kinds of buffs I can really only see just more making people mad when they don't really do much to legitimately address Nasus's issues midgame (Wither buff may or may not help, we'll see), and making more people frustrated when a supposedly "bad" earlygame champion stomps them in lane.

Nasus in a way is like Darius, in that he embodies certain aspects of laning to such an extreme that many champions actually don't really have an answer to what he does if he does it correctly. A lot of people consider Darius very frustrating to play against because he's impossible to outtrade. Well to be frank, my observation is that Nasus can be almost equally frustrating for most people to play against because he's impossible to outsustain. A well-played Nasus generally can't be zoned away from farming, and this is problematic when he has the potential to outscale all champions in the game. So again, laning against Nasus is fundamentally a no-win situation for a lot of champions, where attempting to deny him more often than not actually just makes it easier for him to farm, meaning in order to shut him down, you have to actually let him farm safely early, and hope your jungler combo is better. Which goes back to my point that if Nasus has proper jungler support, there basically is no real counterplay to directly shutting him down in lane. I mean, Darius is more easily ganked than Nasus. Doesn't mean people don't still hate playing against him.

What Nasus honestly worries about more is his mid lane feeding. Ganks can be prevented with wards, and actually it can be extremely difficult to gank Nasus when his playstyle inherently promotes him freezing lane near turret and building loads of durability. It's much more difficult for Nasus to save teammates earlygame, and the majority of games I lose with Nasus are typically ones where the other team specifically gets their mid lane really fed.


Look, I agree with most of your points here. However, there are a few problems.

There is no such thing as "hoping your jungler combo is better". The enemy combo is always going to be better than Nasus's. He has no damage to fight with! So really the counter play is simple. Force fights, dragons, etc, and if Nasus chooses to help he not only loses farm but also his pride when he dies with his team. Given that we agree his mid game is bad, the game should essentially be over if the enemy team keeps up the pressure.

Since I agree with Morello in keeping his game play intact, what other options do we have for making a weak champion (in terms of damage) able to lane against stronger enemies. If he didn't have enough life steal to be able to farm, what kind of counter play are you then asking Nasus to do? He needs a path to redemption and it sounds like you just want to take it away for some odd reason. If the enemy team can't finish the game they should be punished hard core for it, and I'm down for whatever buffs they want to give Nasus to help him achieve that.


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A2ZOMG

Senior Member

02-07-2013

No damage? You don't need damage to fight with when you have the strongest AS slow in the game, and earlygame it doesn't matter who you are (except in the case of say...Karthus or Cassiopeia). If you get hit by that, your damage output drops considerably earlygame. And more importantly, a lot of extremely high damage junglers amplify very well with Nasus. Bad gankers like Shyvana are terrifying if they're ganking for Nasus.

Hell, Nasus is actually really strong in level 1 fights because Wither is just frankly obscene. Just objectively speaking, it's impossible to call Nasus weak earlygame. His kit has a LOT of strength earlygame, ESPECIALLY when nobody else has items.

I'm not sure what you mean by counterplay for Nasus to do. Nasus is inherently a strong laner that limits counterplay options during the laning phase. I don't want to buff an already scary laning phase when in reality, it will do practically nothing to change the fact that Nasus transitions very poorly in teamfights without massive CS, but only just make Nasus more frustrating to play against.

The Wither buff is basically the one buff that seems to be remotely in the right direction.


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NateKiller

Senior Member

02-07-2013

Quote:
A2ZOMG:
No damage? You don't need damage to fight with when you have the strongest AS slow in the game, and earlygame it doesn't matter who you are (except in the case of say...Karthus or Cassiopeia). If you get hit by that, your damage output drops considerably earlygame. And more importantly, a lot of extremely high damage junglers amplify very well with Nasus. Bad gankers like Shyvana are terrifying if they're ganking for Nasus.

Hell, Nasus is actually really strong in level 1 fights because Wither is just frankly obscene. Just objectively speaking, it's impossible to call Nasus weak earlygame. His kit has a LOT of strength earlygame, ESPECIALLY when nobody else has items.

I'm not sure what you mean by counterplay for Nasus to do. Nasus is inherently a strong laner that limits counterplay options during the laning phase. I don't want to buff an already scary laning phase when in reality, it will do practically nothing to change the fact that Nasus transitions very poorly in teamfights without massive CS, but only just make Nasus more frustrating to play against.

The Wither buff is basically the one buff that seems to be remotely in the right direction.


If you can honestly sit there and tell me Nasus wins any level 1 fight, then I agree to disagree.

You can say Wither is strong all day but the point is: Nasus can not fight at lvl 1, or 2, or 3, etc. He will lose. I agree that he is a strong laner, but he is easily taken out of that with team pressure. Nasus is not frustrating to play against. He is simply countered differently than other champions while still maintaining hard counters like you mentioned: Rumble.

The point Riot is trying to make is this: Nasus needs to maintain his current playstyle, but be stronger at it. He clearly needs to be stronger in some form because his win rates are some of the lowest of any champ. I like this approach. It's the best thing to do and maintain his playstyle that his fans love.


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Hyfe

Senior Member

02-07-2013

Updated the OP to include notes on which of the proposed changes Riot has actually done.


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X?nder

Senior Member

02-07-2013

Quote:
Hyfe:
Updated the OP to include notes on which of the proposed changes Riot has actually done.


Finally bro, our beloved dog is getting some love. What do you think about these changes?


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Hyfe

Senior Member

02-07-2013

I have about 50 different thoughts but I'd rather just wait and see/feel the effects of the changes in game before wasting too much time talking out of my ass like I'm seeing so many others do.

I think there are good intentions behind all the changes, and they all help. I think there are better changes that could be made. I do not think the changes will make him OP or FoTM, but I do think they will make him more playable and more viable both in top lane and in jungle.