Need Ranked Help

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FaerellG

Senior Member

08-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Worldsworst View Post
Because when I play I'm not one of the blind raging feeders that look at numbers to see how well people are doing. I actually look at them AS they're playing! And when I see teammates that tend to run in 2v1 or even 1v1 when they're underfed, I label them as a feeder for that game.
Right, you're not answering the question. Why do you think that you always get bad players on your team and never see bad players on the opposing team?


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Worldsworst

Senior Member

08-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by FaerellG View Post
Right, you're not answering the question. Why do you think that you always get bad players on your team and never see bad players on the opposing team?
That isn't what I'm saying at all. Also this thread is getting way off track. I'm not asking for people to pick apart my playing when they've never seen it. I'm asking for someone at a higher elo to queue with (even for normals) so I can accomplish one, or both, of two things:

1. Compare myself to more skilled players than I'm used to playing with/against
2. Determine for MYSELF (not based off of everyone else's uninformed opinions) whether or not I need to improve that drastically to better carry teams

If you just want to try to reason me into thinking I'm bad, please don't post in this thread. I'm looking for someone to queue with NOT someone who has never played with me to try telling me I'm bad.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

08-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Worldsworst View Post
Even if I'm 1000 rating above everyone's skill level in the game, it just isn't possible to win a game when my teammates are having their 0/20 games and raging at the same time.
While not every game is winnable, the premise you're hinting at with this statement is wrong and bad.

It's been proven time and time again by players of varying Elo ratings. When they purposely tank their Elo or get on a smurf with a significantly lower Elo, they win an extraordinarily high percentage of their games until they start getting close to their Elo.

I don't have the link off hand, but there's a pretty detailed thread where a player around 1450 Elo had an account that he tanked down to 400 Elo. He won something like 10-12 straight before his first loss. And while he did lose some matches before getting back into the 1400-1500 bracket, the losses were few and far between. And he blamed essentially every loss on a mistake or a bad play he had made. He pointed out how completely terrible his teammates played match after match after match, to the point you'd think he had actually lost the match, but then it was actually a win.

I know you didn't open this thread to have a debate about your Elo or the Elo system or any of that and your intention was only to find someone to carry you up to a higher Elo, but there's a problem...

Your opinion is that you're a 1600+ player, and that if a 2k+ player just carries you up to the 1600-1700 bracket, everything will be fine and dandy, and you'll enjoy a roughly 50% win percentage up here in your "proper" Elo bracket. The implication here is that the Elo system is broken to the point of you being 5-6 brackets away from where you should be.

The rest of us are of the opinion that the Elo system actually works quite well, and if you can't carry yourself from 1000-1100 up to 1100-1200, then the only thing that will happen if a 2k+ carries you to 1600-1700 is that you're going to be the underskilled feeder in a lot of peoples games until you drop back down into your proper Elo bracket, which may not be as low as 1000-1100, but it's probably not 1600-1700, not yet anyway.

If you want to find someone else in your bracket to queue with so that you have two players who are known (decreasing the odds of a feeder/rager/leaver), then you're more likely to end up in what is actually your proper Elo bracket (and quicker, if you're both of exactly equal skill), then if you have a high ranked player carry you well above your appropriate bracket only so that you can fall back down into the lower bracket.

All that queuing with a higher ranked player accomplishes is letting him out-play the people that you can't and let him carry you to some wins, giving you Elo on his back. Elo that you clearly haven't learned how to earn yet. And if you haven't learned how to earn it, you'll end up losing it just as quickly as soon as you stop queuing with him.


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Worldsworst

Senior Member

08-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by PogoPogoPogoPogo View Post
While not every game is winnable, the premise you're hinting at with this statement is wrong and bad.

It's been proven time and time again by players of varying Elo ratings. When they purposely tank their Elo or get on a smurf with a significantly lower Elo, they win an extraordinarily high percentage of their games until they start getting close to their Elo.

I don't have the link off hand, but there's a pretty detailed thread where a player around 1450 Elo had an account that he tanked down to 400 Elo. He won something like 10-12 straight before his first loss. And while he did lose some matches before getting back into the 1400-1500 bracket, the losses were few and far between. And he blamed essentially every loss on a mistake or a bad play he had made. He pointed out how completely terrible his teammates played match after match after match, to the point you'd think he had actually lost the match, but then it was actually a win.

I know you didn't open this thread to have a debate about your Elo or the Elo system or any of that and your intention was only to find someone to carry you up to a higher Elo, but there's a problem...

Your opinion is that you're a 1600+ player, and that if a 2k+ player just carries you up to the 1600-1700 bracket, everything will be fine and dandy, and you'll enjoy a roughly 50% win percentage up here in your "proper" Elo bracket. The implication here is that the Elo system is broken to the point of you being 5-6 brackets away from where you should be.

The rest of us are of the opinion that the Elo system actually works quite well, and if you can't carry yourself from 1000-1100 up to 1100-1200, then the only thing that will happen if a 2k+ carries you to 1600-1700 is that you're going to be the underskilled feeder in a lot of peoples games until you drop back down into your proper Elo bracket, which may not be as low as 1000-1100, but it's probably not 1600-1700, not yet anyway.

If you want to find someone else in your bracket to queue with so that you have two players who are known (decreasing the odds of a feeder/rager/leaver), then you're more likely to end up in what is actually your proper Elo bracket (and quicker, if you're both of exactly equal skill), then if you have a high ranked player carry you well above your appropriate bracket only so that you can fall back down into the lower bracket.

All that queuing with a higher ranked player accomplishes is letting him out-play the people that you can't and let him carry you to some wins, giving you Elo on his back. Elo that you clearly haven't learned how to earn yet. And if you haven't learned how to earn it, you'll end up losing it just as quickly as soon as you stop queuing with him.
I'm not asking for someone to carry me to a higher elo. This post is assuming a lot of things that aren't even remotely true. I would point them out, but I'd rather not derail this thread even further as I still would like someone to play with.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

08-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Worldsworst View Post
I really believe that I'm just absurdly unlucky with teams
This is your problem.


Do you know how match-making works? Say your Elo is 1050. When you queue up for a ranked match, the system finds you and 9 other players with Elo's in the 1000-1099 range.

They're randomly assigned to one team or another.

I'm not saying you don't get bad teammates. In fact, I couldn't agree with you more. You absolutely do get bad teammates.

However, on the assumption that YOU are not a bad teammate, the ENEMY team has bad teammates 25% MORE often then you team. It's a statistical fact. You are NOT a bad teammate. You have 4 chances of getting a bad teammate. The enemy team has 5 chances. They have 25% more random players that are not you (not a bad teammate).

To believe that you're a 1600 player stuck in the 1000-1100 range because the system, which will statistically give the enemy more bad players than it will give you is somehow giving you bad teammates more often is simply delusional.

The thing is too, you're not saying "I'm a 1050 Elo player, but I know with practice I can be a 1600 player." You're making the claim that you are capable of 1600 level play but can't get to that level because your teammates are bad.

People wouldn't be posting in your thread like this if you made a thread saying "I'm a 1050 Elo player. Can someone come show me what things I need to work on in order to play at a 1600+ Elo level?"

You're making the claim that you're capable of 1600 level play but cannot get their because of the teammates you get. In reality, it's been proven time and time again by good players on smurf accounts that when they're that far below their real Elo, they win virtually every single match, regardless of how bad their teammates are, simply because the enemy team is playing equally bad, and when you're playing that much worse, you can basically just 1v5 them.


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Worldsworst

Senior Member

08-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by PogoPogoPogoPogo View Post
This is your problem.


Do you know how match-making works? Say your Elo is 1050. When you queue up for a ranked match, the system finds you and 9 other players with Elo's in the 1000-1099 range.

They're randomly assigned to one team or another.

I'm not saying you don't get bad teammates. In fact, I couldn't agree with you more. You absolutely do get bad teammates.

However, on the assumption that YOU are not a bad teammate, the ENEMY team has bad teammates 25% MORE often then you team. It's a statistical fact. You are NOT a bad teammate. You have 4 chances of getting a bad teammate. The enemy team has 5 chances. They have 25% more random players that are not you (not a bad teammate).

To believe that you're a 1600 player stuck in the 1000-1100 range because the system, which will statistically give the enemy more bad players than it will give you is somehow giving you bad teammates more often is simply delusional.

The thing is too, you're not saying "I'm a 1050 Elo player, but I know with practice I can be a 1600 player." You're making the claim that you are capable of 1600 level play but can't get to that level because your teammates are bad.

People wouldn't be posting in your thread like this if you made a thread saying "I'm a 1050 Elo player. Can someone come show me what things I need to work on in order to play at a 1600+ Elo level?"

You're making the claim that you're capable of 1600 level play but cannot get their because of the teammates you get. In reality, it's been proven time and time again by good players on smurf accounts that when they're that far below their real Elo, they win virtually every single match, regardless of how bad their teammates are, simply because the enemy team is playing equally bad, and when you're playing that much worse, you can basically just 1v5 them.
Okay, since this thread is obviously not going to get me the help I'm looking for I'll bite. There is one thing that your smurf account example doesn't take into account: these players are accustomed to playing vs other higher elo players and therefore are effortlessly playing at that level. For someone like me, when I'm playing vs only terrible players, my subconscious tells me that I can get away with only putting in 50% effort or less. Because of this I'll have to be constantly thinking that I have to put in 100% effort regardless of how well I'm doing. While paying attention to last hitting, zoning, my map, and gank attempts it is EXTREMELY easy to lose this mindset. Someone on a smurf account will never have this problem because they're used to having to put in all their effort for every game regardless.

You may be thinking that this is some crappy excuse, but it really is true. There are so many psychological factors that go into how well a given person will play in a game and from my experience, this is a major one for me. The only proof I have to back this up is when I queued up with a friend at around 1700 elo. Before the game I knew that these people would be much better than the ones I'm used to facing, so my subconscious adjusted, knowing I would have to put in more effort to win. Sure enough, I ended up with over a 4.0 KDA that game, winning by a huge margin. Yes, this win was partly because of my friend. But if I really were at a 1k-1100 elo level I absolutely would not have had a 4.0 KDA.


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ExecutionerK

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

08-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Worldsworst View Post
But if I really were at a 1k-1100 elo level I absolutely would not have had a 4.0 KDA.
I am sorry but I got to point it out, KDA ratio can be hugely affected by one player on the team, in this case your 1700 friend could have gotten many kills and gave you assists that you couldn't get otherwise.

On the other hand, if you post you replay or duo with my 1200s elo smurf, I can see what is your real problem.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

08-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Worldsworst View Post
my subconscious tells me that I can get away with only putting in 50% effort or less
More of YOUR problem. I mean, your logic is just completely astounding and it pretty much fails here. You say that a 1700 player wins at such high percentages when he's so far below his Elo bracket is because he is used to having to try harder to beat 1700 level players. When he goes down to a lower bracket, that same effort is rewarded with a ROFL-stomp.

While I agree that it does take more effort for a 1700 to win a match in the 1700 bracket and the effort required to win a 1700 bracket match, when applied to the 1000 bracket, would result in a rofl-stomp, I disagree that this makes the 1700 player better equipped to win the 1000 bracket match (his experience in the 1700 bracket, that is).

In fact, for a 1700 player to win a match in the 1700 bracket, he actually needs to work closely with his teammates. It's five 1700 players versus five 1700 players. He has to rely on having good teammates.

And this doesn't just go for the 1700 bracket (or whatever bracket you consider to be a high bracket).

A player with the skill level appropriate for the 600 Elo bracket CAN NOT single-handedly win a match in the 600 bracket. His skill level simply does not allow him to do this. He has to work closely with and rely on his teammates because the match is five 600-level players versus five 600-level players. So in this case, where all players are of equal skill level, the winning team will be the team that manages the best team work.

But we're not talking about cases where all 10 players are of equal skill-level. We're talking about your case. You say you're capable of 1600-level play (have you ever played at this level? have you seen this level?) but you're stuck in the 1000-1100 bracket because of bad teammates.

If your skill level truly is at the 1600 level, you will be so much better than any player in any match in the 1000-1100 bracket that teamwork simply will not be a factor. You will be able to simply roll over the enemy team. Even if your team feeds, you will be fed so much more than anyone on the enemy team because you're simply so much better.

However, if you're a player with skill level appropriate for the 1000-1100 bracket then you do need to rely on teammates and teamwork in order to win. But this also means that you're actually in the right Elo bracket for your current skill level.


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ExecutionerK

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

08-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by PogoPogoPogoPogo View Post
More of YOUR problem. I mean, your logic is just completely astounding and it pretty much fails here. You say that a 1700 player wins at such high percentages when he's so far below his Elo bracket is because he is used to having to try harder to beat 1700 level players. When he goes down to a lower bracket, that same effort is rewarded with a ROFL-stomp.

While I agree that it does take more effort for a 1700 to win a match in the 1700 bracket and the effort required to win a 1700 bracket match, when applied to the 1000 bracket, would result in a rofl-stomp, I disagree that this makes the 1700 player better equipped to win the 1000 bracket match (his experience in the 1700 bracket, that is).

In fact, for a 1700 player to win a match in the 1700 bracket, he actually needs to work closely with his teammates. It's five 1700 players versus five 1700 players. He has to rely on having good teammates.

And this doesn't just go for the 1700 bracket (or whatever bracket you consider to be a high bracket).

A player with the skill level appropriate for the 600 Elo bracket CAN NOT single-handedly win a match in the 600 bracket. His skill level simply does not allow him to do this. He has to work closely with and rely on his teammates because the match is five 600-level players versus five 600-level players. So in this case, where all players are of equal skill level, the winning team will be the team that manages the best team work.

But we're not talking about cases where all 10 players are of equal skill-level. We're talking about your case. You say you're capable of 1600-level play (have you ever played at this level? have you seen this level?) but you're stuck in the 1000-1100 bracket because of bad teammates.

If your skill level truly is at the 1600 level, you will be so much better than any player in any match in the 1000-1100 bracket that teamwork simply will not be a factor. You will be able to simply roll over the enemy team. Even if your team feeds, you will be fed so much more than anyone on the enemy team because you're simply so much better.

However, if you're a player with skill level appropriate for the 1000-1100 bracket then you do need to rely on teammates and teamwork in order to win. But this also means that you're actually in the right Elo bracket for your current skill level.
Upvoted for truth


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Worldsworst

Senior Member

08-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExecutionerKen View Post
I am sorry but I got to point it out, KDA ratio can be hugely affected by one player on the team, in this case your 1700 friend could have gotten many kills and gave you assists that you couldn't get otherwise.

On the other hand, if you post you replay or duo with my 1200s elo smurf, I can see what is your real problem.
If you wanna duo on your smurf I'd be up for doing that tomorrow if you can. Add me in-game and let me know whenever.


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