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Counter-Counter Warding?

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Ethri

Senior Member

08-23-2012

Let's say you are support and it happens to be a game where you are the only one placing wards/ buying oracles. Now the enemy team has two people warding and a tank with oracles. Due to the imbalance in vision resources you lose your jungle. How does someone make a come back when their wards allow them to plan ahead and kill all wards you place.

Is the only way to have teammates help you ward/ use oracles? I'm just wondering because many top/ mid/ jungle refuse to ward. The funny part about this is I end up getting all assists when I play solo top/ ad carry because I am spending extra money for vision (aka why I play support so much).




Edit: Changed question slightly to be less situation specific.


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Etherimp

Senior Member

08-23-2012

Someone on your team needs oracles and you need to gank the person with Oracles on their team?

Simple enough.. sometimes harder to execute.


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Ethri

Senior Member

08-23-2012

Quote:
Etherimp:
Someone on your team needs oracles and you need to gank the person with Oracles on their team?

Simple enough.. sometimes harder to execute.


6 Stack Cho'gath+ Hp/ Mr/ Armor does not die easily when he doesn't wander alone. Two people warding+ shrooming and one person counter warding > one person warding + counter warding.

I'm speaking more in terms of games where my team doesn't ward, then complains about me not warding enough (because all the wards were destroyed fairly quickly).


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FaerellG

Senior Member

08-23-2012

Ward bait. Its very funny. If you know where their wards are, drop your own ward so they see you drop it and start killing theirs. Make it look like you're leaving, but have a gank set up. Watch their guy with oracles show up like clockwork.


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Ethri

Senior Member

08-23-2012

Quote:
FaerellG:
Ward bait. Its very funny. If you know where their wards are, drop your own ward so they see you drop it and start killing theirs. Make it look like you're leaving, but have a gank set up. Watch their guy with oracles show up like clockwork.


Then what about the 3 people behind them hiding in a bush you can't see into?

Edited because of perspective change. Original post can be seen quoted a couple posts down.


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Etherimp

Senior Member

08-23-2012

The only option you really have is to have someone get an oracles and remove their ward coverage as well as your own. That way both teams are blind.


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TeknoWizard

Senior Member

08-23-2012

I will always be warding, even if every single person on the enemy team has Oracle's. I do this because even if the ward gets taken out in 30 seconds, or even less, it's vision we wouldn't of had without it. Plus, there are several sneaky ward spots that people don't look in.


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FaerellG

Senior Member

08-23-2012

Quote:
Ethri:
What if they bring their whole team with them? When you are in a losing position, setting up ganks does not work very well especially when the team does not think you are doing your job well (lack of wards on map). Their Cho had oracles for 20+ minutes (he didn't die once that game) and my team never realized it till I told them why the map wasn't covered in wards.

I thought it was common sense to see the eye over an enemy head.

So let's say that the team can work together. What do you do when the enemy team is working together as well so you never can kill oracles?

If they bring If you can't beat them in a fight where you initiate, I doubt ward coverage is going to help you as much.
If they are consistently bringing their entire team, then use it as a distraction as your team should be clearing wards too so they won't know your full strength and formation.

Their Cho had Oracles and you waited 20+ minutes before informing your team to coordinate a plan? Try announcing it the moment you saw him with it or the moment you noticed your wards were expiring pre-maturely instead of just assuming your teammates know.

Yeah, it is common sense to see it, but it's not always practical to kill the person with oracles, nor is it practical to assume that everyone on your team knows unless you've told them explicitly. Maybe Cho never went to their lane so they never saw him with the floaty eye thing. No one has 100% map awareness. Usually laning players are busy focused on their lanes. As someone who plays Shen, a popular tactic that smart opponents do when they gank my allies is have my laning opponent start a fight with me. Even if they'll lose in the trade, they distract me from paying attention to the other gank. Distracted means no ulti to save my allies. It's a smart tactic to counter Shen.

As for assuming the opponents have their organization together and are working as a team to protect the person with oracles? Even well organized teams screw up their positioning. You just have to exploit their mistakes. You sound like an awfully defeatist and passive player who doesn't communicate much with his team.


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Ethri

Senior Member

08-23-2012

@FaerellG
I agree, I should have notified them earlier about the oracles. I may have been overly frustrated with the fact that top consisted of 2 friends that complained about no one calling mia when the jungler ganked them. I was a defeatist (but non-passive) player that game after top was telling me to shut up when I notified them that 4 people were going down to take bottom tower (they didn't want to leave their lane the whole game).

I knew that was a lost game when the team refused to work together against players playing much smarter.

However, that is besides the point. If an enemy team has a sight advantage and make good use of that sight advantage with good decisions, how do you counter that. A good Cho'gath doesn't die very easily with all his hp/ cc/ defense. A good Teemo places 5 mini wards every 90 seconds, that last 3x longer than normal wards.

Though this applies to almost every game. If the other team does not ward and my team listens to one another, then we usually win (unless someone is overly fed). If everyone on a team is willing to contribute 1 occasional ward and converges on common goals you know you will have a good game.

Now with that I will change the original question to this....
Assuming two equal teams that converge on like goals, how do you counter- counter warding when they can see you, but you can't see them?


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Ethri

Senior Member

08-23-2012

Quote:
TeknoWizard:
Plus, there are several sneaky ward spots that people don't look in.


Where would those be? Thinking off the top of my head, I could only think of behind jungle minions.


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