@Morello and Riot Why I think the Irelia nerf was unneeded (Wall of Text)

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Dnomes

Senior Member

03-20-2012

Hi dear community, I am here to talk about a much known issue among many players; Irelia.
Players has been whining over her kit since she got popular (People thought she was bad around release hue hue).

I am one of the few players who have played Irelia religiously, and she is the champion that carried me to 2,1k. I watched Wickd stream religiously and then she started growing on me.

I enjoy Irelia and her play style, but that doesn’t change the fact, that I think the nerf went overboard.

There is no point arguing whether or not her kit is broken, because as it is now; it’s the best kit in the game, offering everything, compromising with nothing.


First I would like to go over how I think she plays across all phases in the game and the definition of her role.

Her Role: She is Tanky Bruiser Carry Assassin. She goes in, kills, gets out.

Early game
People say Irelia has a bad early game, this is simply not true. While she doesn’t do as much damage as Yorick and Udyr, she can stay in lane vs. just about anyone, which makes her one of the safest picks.
Lvl 1-4 is her weakest phase, she can’t trade with anyone since her sustain is not there, and Hiten Style does 0 damage. When she hits 5 she is about as strong as the enemy top laner, usually! Lvl 6 you should try to get a kill with your jungler or push your lane so you can get drake. Irelia has 3 item paths in early game: Wriggle’s, Phage and Wit’s End. How you decide on these items is dependant on who your laning vs and how you are doing.
Phage is always the best item to get, since Irelia is so reliant on being able to dish out consistent damage (Her burst is weak as you might have noticed, and she doesn’t stick to targets well with the CD on rank 1 Q).
Wit’s End is always the choice vs AP’s, it offers tons of damage and it makes it almost impossible to trade with her, Rumble can still win most fights if they have equal farm (Usually Rumble has more due to his superior early game).
Wriggle’s Lantern is the item you get when you know you won’t win fights with just phage, you normally get this vs Yorick, Udyr and Warwick (Or you get Wit’s vs Warwick, really up to how you play Irelia). These 3 champs Irelia can’t trade with due to their superior kit for early game. Irelia will get worn out and lose.
What most people forget here is, when Irelia gets wriggle you should always try to gank her or get drake ASAP. Irelia is weak in teamfights now, because she can’t stick to anyone in fights, people will run away from her, and if you have any knock-away ability, Irelia has to walk towards her target. When Irelia gets her Wriggle, these 3 champions can’t wear her down anymore because of the combination of Wriggle’s and Hiten style, it’s okay to whine about it, I can see how it’s demoralizing seeing all your harass disappear with 6 auto attacks (She heals like 39-45 with every auto lvl 9 I think).

Midgame
This is where Irelia truly starts to shine, depending on who she is laning vs she should have her Phage and Wit’s/Wriggle’s/Giant’s belt (If super farmed Frozen mallet). She is able to stick to a target really well and her 75 true damage really starts to hurt A LOT. Irelia is one of the best bruisers during this phase, she outdamages the AD carry, the enemy bruiser and dishes out a lot of damage. There is no point arguing if she is bad here, she is fantastic. Irelia’s team should go for dragon and get a couple of towers during this phase, maybe also make baron plays. It’s incredibly easy with Irelia because of her kit. The only way you can win these teamfights is, if you have better midgame team comp.
Being caught alone during this phase by Irelia means you will not get away.

Lategame

The common misunderstanding here is that Irelia is a super stronk late game, which she isn’t (I will go over that later). Team fights here are game deciding, 1 mistake=Game thrown. Irelia can and usually will fall of semi-hard here. When you are in this phase you are reliant on a teammate for an initiate, since you can’t just jump on the AD Carry anymore, you will get peeled away and killed with minimal effort. The thing is here, you have the strongest sustained damage out of any bruiser in the game, with a decent initiate you will be surprised how damage you can dish out over the course of the fight, though you will also be surprised of how fast you can die if your team fails and you don’t have enough time. The AD Carry kills you in 2 seconds. You are so reliant on your team to do anything. You don’t offer that much anymore. The CC reduction is obligatory for you to even stay alive during the course of the fight. Your W feels nonexistent if you get engaged on, your E is lacking and your ult won’t make a worthwhile difference in the teamfight.

Irelia’s strongest phase being late; Scaling and Transition and the common misunderstanding...
As I said before, I do not believe Irelia is any strong lategame (I believe Wickd doesn’t either).
Comparison of Irelia and Other bruisers lategame.

Irelia lvl 18
Basestats
Health 430 (+85)
Attack damage 53.3 (+3.3)
Health regen. 6.5 (+0.65)
Attack speed 0.665 (+3.2%)
Mana 230 (+35)
Armor 15 (+3.75)
Mana regen. 7.0 (+0.65)
Magic res. 30 (+1.25)
Range 125
Mov. speed 320

Bladesurge: CD 6 Seconds 140 + Autoattack (Applies onhit) Physical damage.
Hiten Style; CD 15 Seconds Heals 13 (Active 26); Dishes out 75 True damage).
Equilibrium Strike: CD 12 Seconds Deals 280 (+0,5 AP) Magic damage, stuns for 2 Seconds.
Transcendent Blades: Physical Damage Per Blade: 80 / 120 / 160 (+0.5 per ability power) (+0.6 per bonus attack damage)
Maximum Physical Damage to one target: 320 / 480 / 640 (+2.0 per ability power) (+2.4 per bonus attack damage).

Wukong Lvl 18
Basestats
Health 435 (+85)
Attack damage 54 (+3.2)
Health regen. 5.1 (+0.65)
Attack speed 0.658 (+3.0%)
Mana 202 (+38)
Armor 15 (+3.5)
Mana regen. 6.9 (+0.65)
Magic res. 30 (+1.25)
Range 175
Mov. speed 320

Crushing blow: Total Physical Damage: 30 / 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 (+1.1 per attack damage); Shreds 30% armor.
Decoy: 250 Magic damage.
Nimbus Strike: Physical Damage: 60 / 105 / 150 / 195 / 240 (+0.8 per bonus attack damage)
Attack Speed Bonus: 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50%
Cyclone: Physical Damage Per Second: 20 / 110 / 200 (+1.2 per attack damage)
Total Physical Damage: 80 / 440 / 800 (+4.8 per attack damage)
Cooldown: 120 / 105 / 90 seconds

Gangplank Lvl 18
Basestats
Health 495 (+81)
Attack damage 54 (+3)
Health regen. 4.25 (+0.75)
Attack speed 0.651 (+2.75%)
Mana 215 (+40)
Armor 16.5 (+3.3)
Mana regen. 6.5 (+0.7)
Magic res. 30 (+1.25)
Range 125
Mov. speed 320

Parrrley: Physical Damage: 20 / 45 / 70 / 95 / 120 (+1.0 per attack damage)
Remove Scurvy: Cooldown: 22 / 21 / 20 / 19 / 18 seconds
Heal: 80 / 150 / 220 / 290 / 360 (+1.0 per ability power)
Raise Morale: Passive Attack Damage Bonus: 8 / 10 / 12 / 14 / 16
Passive Movement Speed Bonus: 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 / 7%
Active Self Attack Damage Bonus: 12 / 19 / 26 / 33 / 40
Active Self Movement Speed Bonus: 8 / 11 / 14 / 17 / 20%
Cannon Barrage: Magic Damage Per Cannonball: 75 / 120 / 165 (+0.2 per ability power)
Cooldown: 120 / 115 / 110 seconds

Shyvana lvl 18
Basestats
Health 435 (+95)
Attack damage 54.5 (+3.4)
Health regen. 7.2 (+0.8)
Attack speed 0.658 (+2.4%)
Fury 100 (Manaless)
Armor 17.6 (+3.4)
Magic res. 30 (+1.25)
Range 125
Mov. speed 325

Twin Bite: Cooldown: 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 seconds
Second Strike Damage: 80 / 85 / 90 / 95 / 100 % of attack damage
Burnout: Magic Damage per Second: 25 / 40 / 55 / 70 / 85 (+0.2 per bonus attack damage)
Maximum Magic Damage: 225 / 360 / 495 / 630 / 765 (+1.8 per bonus attack damage)
Initial Movement Speed Bonus: 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50%
Flame Breath: Cooldown: 12 / 11 / 10 / 9 / 8 seconds
Magic Damage: 80 / 125 / 170 / 215 / 260 (+0.6 per ability power)
Additional On-hit Magic Damage: 12 / 18.75 / 25.5 / 32.25 / 39 (+0.09 per ability power)
Dragon’s Descent: Passive Armor & Magic Resistance: 10 / 15 / 20
Magic Damage: 200 / 300 / 400 (+0.7 per ability power)
Looking across all these stats you might find something worth noticing, Irelia has no scalings. All her damage comes from her autoattacks (Onhit and truedamage). She has basestats closely resembling these other champions, but as you can see, Wukong scales better and does more AoE damage with an knockup, Shyvana scales better and does more AoE damage, GP gives across AoE buffs and has more presence during early game and lategame.
Irelia is one of those champions least benefitting from metagolem in lategame. Her health isn’t the best, and her scaling aren’t worth mentioning. The reason I chose these 3 champions to compare with, was because they do similar stuff as Irelia does.
Also Irelia offers nothing to lategame, she doesn’t have AoE stun, she doesn’t have AoE CC, she doesn’t buff up your team, she doesn’t dish out AoE damage, she doesn’t burst without Trinity Force. The only thing she offers here is massive and tons of sustained damage.

However, I will mention why people think Irelia is so godlike lategame; Transitioning.
Irelia is one of those champions who goes from early to late ezmode. She has insane capability to farm early game, easy to get kills in midgame and then rolls faces lategame (Though you should try to end the game by mid-lategame). It’s undeniable she scales bad, but it’s also undeniable that it isn’t easy to get gold with her. She is usually the champion who gets the most gold by lategame, and when she is that much more gold ahead than the other bruisers, it’s much easier for her to kill a target before being killed herself or peeled off as the tanky bruiser assassin carry she is. I cannot think of a champion transitioning this good from every phase of the game.
Again I will mention this about lategame; Irelia offers nothing to lategame, she doesn’t have AoE stun, she doesn’t have AoE CC, she doesn’t buff up your team, she doesn’t dish out AoE damage, she doesn’t burst without Trinity Force. The only thing she offers here is massive and tons of sustained damage.

What was the problem with Irelia, what should’ve been nerfed, what should’ve been done
Irelia is the only bruiser who is able to go full defensive and still be able to dish out damage due to her W true damage, it’s broken, that is an fact. However, Riot decided to nerf her sustain, which means a big nerf to her transitioning throughout every phase of the game. I think that is the wrong path to take.
What they should’ve done is; do something with the truedamage component of her W and give her scalings atleast, let the sustain be as it is. This will firstly make it much easier to trade blows with her and also make it easier to scale into lategame for her.

Thank you for reading through the text and leave comments below.

TL;DR Read the text or stop whining about Irelia sweetiepie.

Disclaimer: I am not speaking English natively, so there might be sentences that look weird and grammar mistakes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickd
Don't nerf my Irelia mannnnn.... She's not OP. The only reasons she is one of the most favorite picks toplane is because of the fact that she is hard to counter in lane, and you won't get totally destroyed if enemy picks x champion. For example if i pick Cho'Gath toplane i will get completly destroyed by Irelia, but Irelia got no clear counter on top lane, and that is why she's so popular. Not because she is overpowered.
Wickd post ^^ On reddit.

http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflege...eeded_discuss/

Counters to Irelia this patch
Early game: Riven, Fizz, Udyr and Rumble (Too tired to think of others).
Midgame: Irelia is still the same, she wins vs almost every top well played ^^

Westrice talks about Irelia nerfs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYGB1...p;feature=plcp
1;26;30
Westrice states that the nerf was unnecessary and says the same as Wickd basically.

Chaox about the nerfs
http://www.solomid.net/blog.php?v=22253

TSM on Irelia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaid View Post
Sorry for bad English, EU player here.

Last night, after first game vs. Curse, TSM had a long discussion about Irelia. Dyrus said that she in not good any more and the rest of TSM agreed with him. They decided not to use Irelia any more in the upcoming events. If you ask any better EU top laner they will tell you the same. Right now she is just bad.

But they are just top players in the world, what do they know. I'm sure that 1200 ELO Riot balance team knows better.
Message from Dyrus to Dnomes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyrus View Post
hi dnomes I think your thread is great. good luck in trying to get morello to buff irelia again.
Wickd Quotes in this thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickd View Post
Irelia Useless GGWP.

And you are a bit right she sounds great because there was no hard counter on lane, but Irelia was never great in teamfights, and because of that it didn't matter if there was no real hard counters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickd View Post
[19:37:42] Dyrus: i suck at her
[19:37:44] Dyrus: and i suck vs her
[19:37:46] Dyrus: yay
[19:37:54] Dyrus: i especially suck vs her when you're playing her
[19:42:02] Dyrus: and most of all
[19:42:06] Dyrus: i wanna troll people
[20:17:40] Wickd: am i alowed to copy paste what you just wrote into the threaD!Q?:P
[20:17:56] Dyrus: do w/e u want

Dyrus was trolling!
Wingsofdeathx on the nerfs!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingsofdeathx View Post
Irelia is still good, people just fotm hate on her. She isn't as safe of a pick since she won't get a free full heal for being pushed back to tower at lvl 3. So if shes in a matchup that hurts her early she will stay hurt as her lane progresses. Still does the same damage as before. Still a good champion. You'll be forced to buy auxiliary sustain items now instead of just relying on your W and R. You're also forced to even out trades with damage instead of just laughing it off with ubersustain and saving mana for dunking later.

Tourney Results post-patch
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralik098 View Post
So the first tournaments that she has appeared in were held this weekend. I followed the GGclassic and recorded her results.

http://ggchronicle.com/

14 games where played in this tournament this weekend.

0 Bans
picked in 5 games

Her record in those games were:

1/1/0- Win - HotShotGG
2/6/3- Loss - TB Rarity
4/9/3- Loss - yeTz
1/6/0- Loss - nothinghere
1/6/1- Loss - TreeEskimo

9/28/7
1 Win
4 Losses


HotShotGG was the only one to be able to score a win with her, but he was facing a player with an elo of 1570 and only went 1/1/0.

Three of those games were played with a large elo difference between the teams. If you remove those games where the difference was 300 points or more, it looks like this.

1/6/0- Loss- nothinghere 2300 Elo
1/6/1- Loss- TreeEskimo 2260 Elo

2/12/1
0 Wins
2 Losses

Real TL;DR
Quote:
Originally Posted by ta11geese3 View Post
Good post. Only thing I don't agree with is her kit - it's not perfect (and you do point this out in a way). She has very little team synergy and utility as she only has a situational stun. As a result, if she falls behind in farm (ie get ganked lv2 by jungler and get zoned all day) then she's practically useless.

Otherwise, good job pointing out her scaling. As someone whose most played is prob irelia It's sad that people think her late game is godly when it's actually her mid game... and that she's a poor late game carry.

I've had a lot of games where I'll be like 6-0 mid game, then end something like 10-5 for a win or 7-7 for a loss. After your 3rd item or so you focus more on defense, so your offense barely increases. However, ranged champions are going pure offense, including % penetration making your defensive items less worthwhile. Teams with a lot of slows and knockups make life miserable. Q onto carry, they flash, you get slowed, you die 3 seconds later to crits.


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Jortalus

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Senior Member

03-20-2012

tl;dr

Voted down because you're probably wrong.


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Dnomes

Senior Member

03-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jortalus View Post
tl;dr

Voted down because you're probably wrong.
I am high elo listen to me hueuhehu


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Patyc

Junior Member

03-20-2012

I Concur, Irelia was fine the way she was


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Dnomes

Senior Member

03-20-2012

Thank you sir.


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Flaming June

Senior Member

03-20-2012

I was prepared to make this thread myself, but you got out most of what I would have said.

The jist of this is:

Irelia depends on a strong, sustained laning phase to secure her transition into mid game, where she shines. Late game her lack of scaling causes her to fall off, dying to carries and being unable to dive like a traditional assassin might be able to.

These nerfs could throw her entirely out of whack.

Edit: This was also said in the OP, but I'm gonna ****ing say it again.

Irelia does have scaling on her abilities. Buying AD doesn't feel good. Give GP or Wukong a ton of AD and they'll go to town with it. Irelia? Not at all. Auto attacks aren't enough when you aren't building crit damage/chance to enhance them like a ranged carry.


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BranGor

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Junior Member

03-20-2012

Agree.


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DoctorAlanGrant

Senior Member

03-20-2012

I honestly feel she could use a general rebalancing. She definitely doesnt scale super well into late game because she doesnt have a gamechanging ult like wukong or lee sin, so as long as teams position properly her teamfight is weak. She can drop out of position squishies ridiculously fast though. Her laning was very strong and she wasnt super counterable but she had no escapes for ganks and she drops extremely quickly through focus and ignites. Attack speeed slows also touch her in places that she does not want to be touched. I would like to see her keep her general gameplay especially her q and e mechanics. As much as I love her (I have over 500 games on her between 3 accounts) I feel like her w and r need to be reworked for her ever to be viable while not being annoying to play against or on the weak side.

Edit: Freezeezy hit one of my major gripes with her right on the head, building Ad does not feel nearly as satisfactory as it should even despite her having high scaling on her ult and an autoattack reset on q.


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Dnomes

Senior Member

03-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorAlanGrant View Post
I honestly feel she could use a general rebalancing. She definitely doesnt scale super well into late game because she doesnt have a gamechanging ult like wukong or lee sin, so as long as teams position properly her teamfight is weak. She can drop out of position squishies ridiculously fast though. Her laning was very strong and she wasnt super counterable but she had no escapes for ganks and she drops extremely quickly through focus and ignites. Attack speeed slows also touch her in places that she does not want to be touched. I would like to see her keep her general gameplay especially her q and e mechanics. As much as I love her (I have over 500 games on her between 3 accounts) I feel like her w and r need to be reworked for her ever to be viable while not being annoying to play against or on the weak side.

Edit: Freezeezy hit one of my major gripes with her right on the head, building Ad does not feel nearly as satisfactory as it should even despite her having high scaling on her ult and an autoattack reset on q.
But that would also change the feel of the champion sadly >_>


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TinyTeddy

Member

03-20-2012

Ever since the patch Preview came out i am pretty upset that Irelia got a nerf in reality no champion is OP if countered correctly, irelia early lane phase is horrible her mana pool is small and her skills take quiet an amount of mp, there is alot of champions that probably do better then her on top lane. It's just that in every Game People do not tend to relies if you allow a champion to get farmed they will dominate in any game. There was really no need to nerf Irelia because everyone in the game knows the capability she has all everyone has to do is learn to counter it, same with tryndamere, nasus, vieger, kassadin, leblanc. They are all classified as OP with the right amount of skilled but doesnt mean every one of these champions should be nerfed to the extent of what they did to irelia. Riot has probably killed off a champion that shouldnt be mettled with, there are many counters to irelia eg- olaf,udyr,nasus but due to this nerf her counter pool will be larger.