Tiamat on Tristiana?

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Warrrax

Senior Member

09-13-2010

I start with Explosive Shot and max it out, taking 1 point of jump and maxing ultimate of course and maxing Rapid Shot.
I harrass with the Active E (100 DoT damage at level 1) which is a respectable nuke early and blowing up minions next to champs makes me happy.


I start with 1 health potion, 1 Rejuv Beads and Fairy bead. The 8HP/5 has really helped me absorb some nukes and dinks and stay laning. The Fairy (3MP/5) gives me an extra E-attack every minute and a half and keeps my mana up.

I want to boost damage ASAP as damage > attack speed when your base damage is pretty low. Plus I have a big attack speed booster skill anyways and it helps with last hit +explosion.

I can get the longsword(400), or pick(900) or the whole tiamat depending on when I go back and how I am doing. I dont have to save up 1850 for a BFSword or something.

At 2000ish (Tiamat was improved recently) I get the following:

* +42 damage - That's solid for 2000 gold investment.
* Consolidates my 4 items.
* Lets me incorporate my initial 400gold worth of items (vs using a Dorans shield)
* 15HP/5 regen (from 8) helps with recovery a lot.
* 4MP/5 regen (from 3) helps a bit with mana.
* It gives splash attacks which are a great combo with explosive shot. Lots of chain-explosions!


I think this is a reasonable way to go and it only takes 1600 gold extra. From there, I grab boots (or earlier if needed), upgrade to berserker then take last whisper for the armor penetration and attack speed or Black Cleaver for penetration and damage.


I don't think starting with last whisper is good because of low +damage and enemies will have low armor values anyways so percentage isnt as good.

Infinities is good but at 4000 gold it takes a long time. Unlike Ashe, I am not based on crits so I don't think that is a good investment. Doesnt help HP/MP regen either.

Bloodthirster is good and maybe lifesteal is the way to go, but it requires me to not suck. If I get kilt, or dont get kills it isn't cost effective.

Brutalizer adds damage and armor pen quickly, but 25 dmg/1330 isnt as good as 42 dmg/2000ish +other benefits to me. Its also cheaper and doesn't build any further.

Black Cleaver is strong (+75 dmg) for 3000 and penetrates armor. It takes longer to build and even longer since I couldn't use starting gold items to help build it. Would need Dorans Shield and conserve mana to go with this.


I would appreciate your advice.


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Soiyeruda

Senior Member

09-13-2010

My advice, skip Tiamat and try a Doran's Blade -> Boots -> B.F. Sword early game item build.

Doran's Blade gives you extra HP (always helpful) and a tiny bit of Lifesteal, which provides about the same "regen" rate as a rejuvenation bead. Tristana is usually never reliant on mana regen, unless she's just spamming her skills, which she really shouldn't need to, imo.

Once you get a B.F. Sword, you'll kill minions fast enough, since you have at least 110 AD at that point. Tiamat might make the process faster, but ultimately:

1) Killing minions faster doesn't make them respawn faster.
2) Tiamat doesn't build into anything else, so 42 AD for 2k gold becomes lackluster and not worth it late game, especially since it takes up an item slot that could've been used for a better AD item. B.F. Sword can become stronger and it's 220 cheaper.

You should really be prioritizing your skills as R>W>E>Q. W provides very nice burst damage early game (that doesn't weigh on mana cost when you upgrade it), especially when combined with her E and R. Later in the game, you probably won't be doing this as much, but early game, it's pretty devastating against most other squishies, and will do much more damage in a smaller concentration than your 100 damage-every-1.2 second auto attacks. (At level 6, total damage adds up to like 650 magic damage if you went 3 W, 1 E, and 1 R, easily on par with Annie's full skill rotation and the like, and means death if the opposing player is below half hp, assuming they're a squishy.)


tl:dr; Tiamat isn't worth it. Especially not on Tristana who practically has a build-in Tiamat-like feature. =x


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Zyrxil

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Senior Member

09-13-2010

It's a bad idea for so many reasons.
-2000g is more money than a BF Sword for less damage, and it doesn't build into anything
-The splash range is tiny. MP/HP regen aren't useful by the time you have 2000gold.
-What do you need the splash for? With more damage, you're easily clearing an entire creep wave in about 5 seconds. After that, more damage is useful, the splash is not.
-Any champion that uses AD gets IE because gold for gold, it is a great DPS increaser, regardless of whether or not you have abilities that depend on Crit.
-Ditto gold efficiency for Last Whisper.


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Lorifel

Senior Member

09-13-2010

Sounds interesting. I shall try it at least once.


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Warrrax

Senior Member

09-13-2010

I think I get what you are saying. Maybe the splash damage isn't super helpful. It lets me shoot the middle of the pack and by the time that one is dead (with full Explosive shot) the others are low enough that they die to the explosion. As you said, maybe killing slightly faster isn't all that helpful. I consider that part just a small bonus.

I understand it is less efficient from a pure damage perspective, but its not THAT much less efficient, right? It costs about 12% more and does 12% less damage. In exchange I get the incremental build, 15HP,4MP regen.


I guess the main thing I like about Tiamat is that I can built it incrementally. If things aren't going so great, then I can pick up partial pieces that still help me out (longsword or pick) and can interrupt it with 350 gold lvl1 boots if needed.
With a BFSword, it is an all or nothing deal. If I get kilt at 1100 gold, there isn't much I can do with the money to immediately improve myself.


I don't understand the late game item slot thing either. I have yet to see a time when I had boots, Tiamat, and 4 expensive slots and though if only I had a 3k item instead of my 2k Tiamat. Maybe this happens at higher levels?
Id be willing to bet that most players don't even get around to selling their Dorans to get something else in most of their games. (could be wrong?)


How do you use Rocket effectively as damage? What happens is that my 50 damage dinks are not a good trade vs a spellcaster, or even to harass a tank. So instead, I use Explosive liberally to put a 100(125,150) damage DOT + a shot in the behind to trade-off with enemy casters. Otherwise they can chase me off with their nukes. Jumping on top of them in teh middle of their creeps doesnt seem to work very well. Especially with their tank waiting to stun me.
Hence, i use the rocket as an escape or vs a low opponenet to slow them and put the DoT on em and shoot at em until level 6 or assist.

I would think boosting Rocket Jump would be more for AP builds to maximize burst DPS. Explosive shot's DOT does scale awfully so maybe Ill try just 1 point for first 3 levels of harassment and then boost Rocket instead.

I really appreciate your time and explanations, instead of just saying "U sux noob go IE".


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Cenerae

Senior Member

09-13-2010

You use rocket jump to stop people running away more than for it's damage. But early game, a rocket jump + buster shot combo is beefy burst damage, so pumping points into it is well worth it. Not to mention the shorter cooldown for escaping with.


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Zyrxil

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Senior Member

09-13-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrrax View Post
I understand it is less efficient from a pure damage perspective, but its not THAT much less efficient, right? It costs about 12% more and does 12% less damage. In exchange I get the incremental build, 15HP,4MP regen.
Yes is it that much less efficient. You're already stating two ways in which it's a bunch less efficient, plus it doesn't build into anything that has a useful passive, so that's another way it's less efficient.


Quote:
I guess the main thing I like about Tiamat is that I can built it incrementally. If things aren't going so great, then I can pick up partial pieces that still help me out (longsword or pick) and can interrupt it with 350 gold lvl1 boots if needed.
With a BFSword, it is an all or nothing deal. If I get kilt at 1100 gold, there isn't much I can do with the money to immediately improve myself.
If you're not doing so hot with last hitting, then just pickup the Pickaxe part of the IE when you go back.


Quote:
I don't understand the late game item slot thing either. I have yet to see a time when I had boots, Tiamat, and 4 expensive slots and though if only I had a 3k item instead of my 2k Tiamat. Maybe this happens at higher levels?
Id be willing to bet that most players don't even get around to selling their Dorans to get something else in most of their games. (could be wrong?)
There's more to item slots than just having your 6 final upgraded items. You want to have slots available for buying the parts to bigger items since you're not going to spend 4k gold at once. You want to have slots available for Wards and potions/elixirs. Slots are not nearly as free as you think.


Quote:
How do you use Rocket effectively as damage? What happens is that my 50 damage dinks are not a good trade vs a spellcaster, or even to harass a tank. So instead, I use Explosive liberally to put a 100(125,150) damage DOT + a shot in the behind to trade-off with enemy casters.
You don't use RJ for damage. Use it for escaping, or if you're on the winning side of a fight you can use RJ to slow them down if they're running (aim ahead of them to compensate for the slow animation).

For harassing, Explosive Shots great, but be aware of your mana so you always have enough for RJ and Buster Shot. Also take advantage of Trist's range increase as you level up to do small plinks whenever you have the chance, especially if the other guy has no good ranged attack to retaliate with. Sure, when you have no items it's small damage, but it adds up, and it either forces them to play super conservatively or recall. Or, if they're stupid, you can finish them with a jump in + all abilities + Buster shot when they're at the edge of your range (or back towards your turret, if they're especially stupid and get close enough).


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Warrrax

Senior Member

09-13-2010

So RJ is used for slowing and escaping. Hence it shouldn't be needed more often than 22 seconds, right?

Boosting its levels doesn't do much except for damage and cooldown. But the difference between 16 and 22 seconds seems irrelevant, especially if you can get an assist/kill and reset it anyways. If using it for escape 16v22 seconds is an eternity anyways.

On the other hand, explosive shot boosting is not super great either. The DOT scales really badly, though the exploding minion effect scales adequately .

Early on, I dont think the quick shot is useful due to cost, so for the first 6 levels Ill be leveling either Explosive shot OR Rocket Jump. I went with explosive shot since I harass with it more early game.

But maybe I need to try rocket jump instead since it doesn't increase in mana cost and boosts damage with level a lot more. +65ish per lvl vs +25.


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Baconnaise

Senior Member

09-13-2010

I can agree with the sentiments that Tiamat doesn't seem that awesome on tristana. It's not a horrible item but the aoe is rather small and does half damage. If I had a problem with explosive shot (which I don't it farms well) I would be more open to it.

The area I don't agree with is maxing rocket jump. It's up to you what skills you prefer leveling up but I prefer my q and e maxed along with ulti instead.

If you like using tiamat then stick with it. If you make something work for you then it works. The forums and guide websites are usually going to give you a cookie cutter core item build anyways and people that like following a set plan will argue against deviation. Have fun with whatever you use mate.


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Soiyeruda

Senior Member

09-13-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baconnaise View Post
The area I don't agree with is maxing rocket jump. It's up to you what skills you prefer leveling up but I prefer my q and e maxed along with ulti instead.
I suppose it's entirely a matter of preference, but I max Rocket Jump first, simply because Rapid Fire and Explosive Shot aren't really that great to level up early game.

Early game, you have less AD, which makes Rapid Fire a less useful, since you'll only be doing 50-75 damage attacks.


Explosive Shot is okay, but again, is much better coupled with high AD, since you'll be more likely to kill every minion on each wave, which is noticeable by mid game, around Level 13 (by this time, you should have a B.F. Sword and have maxed out Explosive Shot.)


So that leaves Rocket Jump. It's a really versatile skill which allows you to deal burst damage, escape, harass when combined with E, etc.

It increases damage and reduces cooldown, but the mana cost remains the same. It also has a special effect that resets its cooldowns when you get a kill or assist. This feature practically screams that it's a tower dive ability, as you can jump towards the injured tower hugger, stomp them to death, then hop back out with minimal damage from the tower.

It gives Tristana an edge over other ranged carries in the early game, since she is given damage output that easily rivals mages like Annie, and allows her to easily begin getting kills. Granted, late game, it becomes more of a utility tool and less a damage tool, but there's nothing wrong with that, since it should've allowed you fair better early, when Tristana is meant to be vulnerable.


Quote:
If you like using tiamat then stick with it. If you make something work for you then it works. The forums and guide websites are usually going to give you a cookie cutter core item build anyways and people that like following a set plan will argue against deviation. Have fun with whatever you use mate.
The reason people suggest cookie cutter item builds is because they work and they're effective. Tiamat is looked down upon because it's a gold deficient item that scales terribly late game, and costs too much to truly be useful. In a teamfight, enemies won't bunch up quite as much as you like, so Tiamat will only hit two champions at most.


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