Do you think the Tribunal is effective?

Yes (Please explain why) 347 65.72%
No (Please explain why) 181 34.28%
Voters: 528. You may not vote on this poll

Poll: Do you think the Tribunal is effective?

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Donnylicious

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

08-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasja View Post
If someone verbally abused someone else they are guilty, no matter what. That's how Riot sees it. Just because one person does it to someone else does not make it right. If the other person was not being helpful in the game and no one else could tell by the chat, then that's unfortunate, but the other person who was being verbally abusive should still be punished.
Unfortunate indeed.

Quote:
I would not want to vote for an MVP if I had to. There is no reason I would vote for someone that may have been completely equal to everyone else in game and put them above anyone else. That's how most games are, and if I was forced to vote, I would choose my friends. Reporting is optional, as should be an MVP system if it was put in. Forcing me to choose someone I would never actually choose for any real reason is pointless.
If it get's streamlined it could be rather easy. At the end of a match, you see a list of your teammates and you simply click the person who you thought most influenced the win. If you pick your friend and he did poorly, there's a good chance the other three players may disagree. There could be exceptions if each player is voted for, but that could be resolved by maybe splitting the bonus IP. Again this is just one idea.

Quote:
If you can find a large portion of cases where people were unjustly punished and, then you might have a reason to be angry. Premade teams yelling at someone else because they don't like how they played and the other person being a jerk back, still means the other person should be reported, by Riot's terms. The premade should have also been reported, but you don't actually know if they were, so the point is completely moot. You are judging one case and one case only. Not everyone in that group, not the people you want to judge, just that one person give to you in that case.

Not everyone points the blame in chat. Not everyone calls someone a name or tells someone else that they suck or should die, etc.
Chat log is pretty obvious, but as stated earlier, how many other reasons can someone be reported for besides verbal abuse?

Quote:
Riot is treating the tribunal a lot like a judicial system where you are judged by your peers and (in terms of a ban) a judge. Ruling through good behavior is for children, most people playing the game should know what's right and wrong. You are supposed to be 13 years old to play the game. Thirteen means you have the mental capacity to know that telling someone to uninstall because they suck is mean and hurtful.
If you're comparing the Tribunal to our legal system, there is a big difference. Our legal system actually has good evidence. And no, some of the Fortune 500 companies use reward systems to improve sales, etc.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Methelod

Senior Member

08-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donnylicious View Post
When was the last game you had where there wasn't someone blaming someone else for a loss and threatening a report? There is always and will always be a negative person in most games. I'm just saying for League of Legends, a free to play game based on players' wills to support the company, do they really want to be banning players or rather, supporting them and rewarding them for good actions?
And simple negativity is not an issue. Now you delve into the fallacy of since it's not perfect, we can't attempt reform. As the saying goes "Fences keep honest people honest". That's basically what the tribunal does. It tells the people who can reform that they need to do so while attempting to dissuade those who won't reform from playing. Honestly, no system will completely stop all crimes 100%. But the goal is to REDUCE it. The tribunal does that quite effectively.

Quote:
And how many reasons other than verbal abuse can someone be reported for?
Hm, lets see, negative attitude which I probably should have clarified is another thing the tribunal can verify or invalidate. Refusal to communicate (One that to my knowledge is not punishable or even goes to the tribunal.) Intentional feeding, so one point in your favor except for when they admit to it in chat. Unskilled player which doesn't go to the tribunal. Inappropriate name which use to be able to be handled by the tribunal so you are 1 out of 5.

Quote:
That comment was concerning the COC not the Tribunal.
Quote:
The only problem is everyone is breaking the rules. Virtually any game, especially losing ones, you are going to get people who complain and start pointing the blame. With hundreds of new players joining and making new accounts, a person coming back after a ban has to keep his mouth shut and take it up the *** from all the new people because he's afraid of getting banned again. In Riot's view, they rule through fear, in my view, ruling through encouraging good behavior would be more effective.
No. It really wasn't. It was about the tribunal.

Quote:
It may be effective, but it's severely flawed. In the long run, I honestly believe it will only hurt Riot.
Severely flawed in your opinion, to riot and a sizeable amount of the community, it isn't severely flawed. There's room for improvement but the only 'harm' it's doing is punishing trolls and making sure that people who would behave actually do so. I guess there are quite a few people on this forum who think that in and of itself is wrong but still.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Donnylicious

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

08-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Methelod View Post
And simple negativity is not an issue. Now you delve into the fallacy of since it's not perfect, we can't attempt reform. As the saying goes "Fences keep honest people honest". That's basically what the tribunal does. It tells the people who can reform that they need to do so while attempting to dissuade those who won't reform from playing. Honestly, no system will completely stop all crimes 100%. But the goal is to REDUCE it. The tribunal does that quite effectively.
Nobody is saying, "it's not perfect, we can't attempt to reform." I'm all for reform, but in a positive way.

Quote:
Hm, lets see, negative attitude which I probably should have clarified is another thing the tribunal can verify or invalidate. Refusal to communicate (One that to my knowledge is not punishable or even goes to the tribunal.) Intentional feeding, so one point in your favor except for when they admit to it in chat. Unskilled player which doesn't go to the tribunal. Inappropriate name which use to be able to be handled by the tribunal so you are 1 out of 5.
You forget that people can put negative attitude or verbal abuse for anything. A voter skims down, sees a bad word out of context, and votes punish. Believe me, it happens more often than not. But just the fact that it could happen and thus result in 3 day to 2 week ban is a flaw.

Quote:
No. It really wasn't. It was about the tribunal.
I don't understand the premise where you presume to tell me what my statements were concerning lol

Quote:
Severely flawed in your opinion, to riot and a sizeable amount of the community, it isn't severely flawed. There's room for improvement but the only 'harm' it's doing is punishing trolls and making sure that people who would behave actually do so. I guess there are quite a few people on this forum who think that in and of itself is wrong but still.
How many games have you played and how many bans have you had? You can't understand what I'm talking about unless you have been banned for something you shouldn't have and have seen it's flaws.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Methelod

Senior Member

08-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donnylicious View Post
Nobody is saying, "it's not perfect, we can't attempt to reform." I'm all for reform, but in a positive way.
You do realize that your saying "I don't like punishments, they are icky!". That's how I read it. Again. I'm not saying that we shouldn't have a positive reinforcement system, neither is riot. But using only one side of the spectrum simply does not work. Look at little children. You can't bribe them, and you can't only use punishment. It's about a balance of it. To be honest, some people need to be slapped upside the head (Figuratively) to learn. Some need the proverbial carrot.

Quote:
You forget that people can put negative attitude or verbal abuse for anything. A voter skims down, sees a bad word out of context, and votes punish. Believe me, it happens more often than not. But just the fact that it could happen and thus result in 3 day to 2 week ban is a flaw.
Believe me. You're pulling facts out of thin air. Lets go over the facts shall we. A) Riot says that the tribunal is more lenient then they would be. B) Around 50% of cases are pardoned that are sent to the tribunal. C) Only around 2% of people in the community actually go the tribunal. D) People swear, quite a bit. So the most likely conclusion is that the tribunal is not as harsh as you keep trying to make it seem to be. It seems incredulous that what you are saying occurs, primarily because it doesn't unless that bad word is racist at which point it doesn't matter if it's out of context if it was used in a way that is meant as racist. Oh, and to get a 3 day to 2 week ban means that they have to be a repeat offender. For them to get sent back to the tribunal for an offense with something as minor as that AND to be punished means that they have quite a bit of bad luck.

Quote:
I don't understand the premise where you presume to tell me what my statements were concerning lol
Are you trolling? You even mention Riot in the part that I quoted. You pointed out the way that the banning system works and how trolls evade. Stop dodging the point.

Quote:
How many games have you played and how many bans have you had? You can't understand what I'm talking about unless you have been banned for something you shouldn't have and have seen it's flaws.
How many games have I played? Well at least a thousand, around 800 normal games. But you come to the source of the problem. You are revealing that you are either A) A hypocrite. Or B) Have been banned. Either way this leads to you having a bias against the system which means that you are going to attempt to spin whatever information that is given to support your views.

Did you know that there is a 0.5% false positive rate in the tribunal? So of the 2% who get sent there, less then a percentage of those people actually are falsely punished. If your going to come up with hyperbole and false information about the system, don't make it so obvious.

I'd love to see your reportcard now.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Donnylicious

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

08-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Methelod View Post
You do realize that your saying "I don't like punishments, they are icky!". That's how I read it. Again. I'm not saying that we shouldn't have a positive reinforcement system, neither is riot. But using only one side of the spectrum simply does not work. Look at little children. You can't bribe them, and you can't only use punishment. It's about a balance of it. To be honest, some people need to be slapped upside the head (Figuratively) to learn. Some need the proverbial carrot.
Considering the flaws of the slapping, why not try the carrot?

Quote:
Believe me. You're pulling facts out of thin air. Lets go over the facts shall we. A) Riot says that the tribunal is more lenient then they would be. B) Around 50% of cases are pardoned that are sent to the tribunal. C) Only around 2% of people in the community actually go the tribunal. D) People swear, quite a bit. So the most likely conclusion is that the tribunal is not as harsh as you keep trying to make it seem to be. It seems incredulous that what you are saying occurs, primarily because it doesn't unless that bad word is racist at which point it doesn't matter if it's out of context if it was used in a way that is meant as racist. Oh, and to get a 3 day to 2 week ban means that they have to be a repeat offender. For them to get sent back to the tribunal for an offense with something as minor as that AND to be punished means that they have quite a bit of bad luck.
So why so many complaints in this forum? We all have bad luck?

Quote:
Are you trolling? You even mention Riot in the part that I quoted. You pointed out the way that the banning system works and how trolls evade. Stop dodging the point.
If it's really necessary to further your comprehension, here is the comment in question;

"The only problem is everyone is breaking the rules. Virtually any game, especially losing ones, you are going to get people who complain and start pointing the blame. With hundreds of new players joining and making new accounts, a person coming back after a ban has to keep his mouth shut and take it up the *** from all the new people because he's afraid of getting banned again. In Riot's view, they rule through fear, in my view, ruling through encouraging good behavior would be more effective."

Notice the sentence right after the one you quoted. I was talking about people breaking the code of conduct, not the Tribunal ...

Quote:
How many games have I played? Well at least a thousand, around 800 normal games. But you come to the source of the problem. You are revealing that you are either A) A hypocrite. Or B) Have been banned. Either way this leads to you having a bias against the system which means that you are going to attempt to spin whatever information that is given to support your views.

Did you know that there is a 0.5% false positive rate in the tribunal? So of the 2% who get sent there, less then a percentage of those people actually are falsely punished. If your going to come up with hyperbole and false information about the system, don't make it so obvious.

I'd love to see your reportcard now.
And you have a bias for the system because you can't understand the cons. Those statistics are irrelevant because they were based on limited evidence.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Methelod

Senior Member

08-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donnylicious View Post
Considering the flaws of the slapping, why not try the carrot?
Sigh. Discussion with you is pointless. You. Need. BOTH. This is common sense and only a child thinks that only rewarding people will make them behave. Go back, and read my posts.

Quote:
So why so many complaints in this forum? We all have bad luck?
Here. Lets make a forum for people in jail. You'll notice almost all of them plead that the system is corrupt, that the system is broken! Their cries are going to almost always be illegitimate when they are the people the system is designed to punish. That applies to the tribunal. You know why there are so many complaints? Because the people who get punished are often the more vocal people anyways. This doesn't mean that they are correct.

Quote:
If it's really necessary to further your comprehension, here is the comment in question;

"The only problem is everyone is breaking the rules. Virtually any game, especially losing ones, you are going to get people who complain and start pointing the blame. With hundreds of new players joining and making new accounts, a person coming back after a ban has to keep his mouth shut and take it up the *** from all the new people because he's afraid of getting banned again. In Riot's view, they rule through fear, in my view, ruling through encouraging good behavior would be more effective."

Notice the sentence right after the one you quoted. I was talking about people breaking the code of conduct, not the Tribunal ...
Hm. I don't believe the code of conduct bans people so therefor they are not the reason that the people get banned and come back. No where in there was the code of conduct even mentioned until you brought it up later. Nothing references to it, yet it seems to imply the tribunal. Notice the entire quote: None of it mentions the code of conduct, it does mention bans.

Quote:
And you have a bias for the system because you can't understand the cons. Those statistics are irrelevant because they were based on limited evidence.
Sigh. I give up. You want people who support you. I understand the pros and cons of the system. I understand that it has flaws. I understand that it can be improved. I won't claim that I'm not biased, but I'm certainly not as biased as you.

Quote:
Those statistics are irrelevant because they were based on limited evidence.
Is the statement that validates that I am done with this conversation. I'll translate that quote. "Hm, there's hard data that proves that my opinion is wrong. That data is disqualified because I arbitrarily say so."

You refuse to admit you are wrong, and you have nothing to put forth to change anyones opinions.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Lyte

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Lead Social Systems Designer

Follow RiotLyte on Twitter

08-19-2012
1 of 11 Riot Posts

I'm currently working so I can't be as in-depth as I'd like; however, there's interesting discussion here so I'm going to throw in some additional details to clear up some misconceptions.

1) The average Tribunal user actually has really low toxicity compared to the rest of the population. Whether you are looking at Offensive Language, Negative Attitude or Verbal Abuse reports or simply numbers of reports, the average Tribunal user has lower averages than a random sample in the population and way lower than the average toxic player. Saying the "trolls" or "kids" are the ones voting in the Tribunal is just false.

2) Over 50% of players who get a warning from the Tribunal understand what they did wrong and reduce their toxicity dramatically--these players never come back to the Tribunal again.

3) That % that reforms gets lower and lower with multiple punishments in the Tribunal, suggesting that if a player doesn't 'get it' within 1-2 punishments... they are unlikely to ever understand why their behavior is inappropriate in League of Legends.

4) A large percentage of players actually never harass, flame, or use racist/bigotry/abusive language towards other players. Surprisingly, the average player in League of Legends doesn't use this kind of language so saying "it's the internet and everyone is bad" just isn't true.

5) A large number of players actually do not know what the Tribunal is--they don't visit the forums or the website and are not banned by the Tribunal... so it's an unknown entity to them.

I know the Tribunal isn't perfect; but, it does what it's designed to do well which is to identify the most toxic players in the game and either reform or remove them. Should we be designing other systems for the good players and the other 98% of the population that may never interact with the Tribunal? Yes. We know the Tribunal by itself isn't enough to tackle player behavior issues in the game; but, it's one piece of the overall solution.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ahrimal

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

08-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
I'm currently working so I can't be as in-depth as I'd like; however, there's interesting discussion here so I'm going to throw in some additional details to clear up some misconceptions.

1) The average Tribunal user actually has really low toxicity compared to the rest of the population. Whether you are looking at Offensive Language, Negative Attitude or Verbal Abuse reports or simply numbers of reports, the average Tribunal user has lower averages than a random sample in the population and way lower than the average toxic player. Saying the "trolls" or "kids" are the ones voting in the Tribunal is just false.

2) Over 50% of players who get a warning from the Tribunal understand what they did wrong and reduce their toxicity dramatically--these players never come back to the Tribunal again.

3) That % that reforms gets lower and lower with multiple punishments in the Tribunal, suggesting that if a player doesn't 'get it' within 1-2 punishments... they are unlikely to ever understand why their behavior is inappropriate in League of Legends.

4) A large percentage of players actually never harass, flame, or use racist/bigotry/abusive language towards other players. Surprisingly, the average player in League of Legends doesn't use this kind of language so saying "it's the internet and everyone is bad" just isn't true.

5) A large number of players actually do not know what the Tribunal is--they don't visit the forums or the website and are not banned by the Tribunal... so it's an unknown entity to them.

I know the Tribunal isn't perfect; but, it does what it's designed to do well which is to identify the most toxic players in the game and either reform or remove them. Should we be designing other systems for the good players and the other 98% of the population that may never interact with the Tribunal? Yes. We know the Tribunal by itself isn't enough to tackle player behavior issues in the game; but, it's one piece of the overall solution.
Statistical fact and an understanding of human psychology is almost always an effective counter to ignorance and (internet) debate. Those who do not understand this will either refuse to accept it, or are simply unable to comprehend the erroneous portions of their beliefs. Continue to carry the torch Lyte. Those of us who understand, greatly appreciate your willingness to educate those who do not.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

PhoenixBomb

Senior Member

08-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
I'm currently working so I can't be as in-depth as I'd like; however, there's interesting discussion here so I'm going to throw in some additional details to clear up some misconceptions.

1) The average Tribunal user actually has really low toxicity compared to the rest of the population. Whether you are looking at Offensive Language, Negative Attitude or Verbal Abuse reports or simply numbers of reports, the average Tribunal user has lower averages than a random sample in the population and way lower than the average toxic player. Saying the "trolls" or "kids" are the ones voting in the Tribunal is just false.

2) Over 50% of players who get a warning from the Tribunal understand what they did wrong and reduce their toxicity dramatically--these players never come back to the Tribunal again.

3) That % that reforms gets lower and lower with multiple punishments in the Tribunal, suggesting that if a player doesn't 'get it' within 1-2 punishments... they are unlikely to ever understand why their behavior is inappropriate in League of Legends.

4) A large percentage of players actually never harass, flame, or use racist/bigotry/abusive language towards other players. Surprisingly, the average player in League of Legends doesn't use this kind of language so saying "it's the internet and everyone is bad" just isn't true.

5) A large number of players actually do not know what the Tribunal is--they don't visit the forums or the website and are not banned by the Tribunal... so it's an unknown entity to them.

I know the Tribunal isn't perfect; but, it does what it's designed to do well which is to identify the most toxic players in the game and either reform or remove them. Should we be designing other systems for the good players and the other 98% of the population that may never interact with the Tribunal? Yes. We know the Tribunal by itself isn't enough to tackle player behavior issues in the game; but, it's one piece of the overall solution.
Perhaps it's because I use a Red Tracker and have seen this posted dozens of times, but I find it funny how threads still keep coming up questioning the Tribunal. It's one of the most thoroughly statistically-backed systems in gaming (and Riot's data mining skills are above par, to be sure) and when you pull the numbers, the practice always goes against the worries being spewed by people. Thank you for posting these points again, Lyte.

For the rest of you...

http://leagueofreplays.com/redtracker/?country=US&noc=1

Sit on that site for a month and you'll start to understand the trend behind Tribunal complaints (as well as many others with this game) and be better informed before naysaying based on a gut feeling.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Arrietti

Senior Member

08-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donnylicious View Post
Fear doesn't necessarily promote good behavior. More like resentment, and frustration. Resentment at Riot that they got banned, and frustration that they can't stand up for themselves if other players begin belittling them. I guarantee Riot will be losing more players if this keeps up, and not just the bad ones.
Personally I feel the players riot loses to this system are players I dont want to play with so I would still consider it effective in my mind.

All I was saying was that I voted yes because I thought that they tribunal was effective, not that I felt one way or another on the 4 questions you asked below it (one of them being a this or that and not really a yes or no question anyway).

This may be a better way of answering you.

Yes I feel the tribunal is effective

Do you feel that reporting players is effective in encouraging admirable gameplay or is it more of a nuisance and simply a tool for reprisal? neither. tool for promoting what is not acceptable gameplay

Does the Tribunal make players want to be more positive or does it just make players afraid they'll get banned again? I dont think it makes people want to be more positive but I also do not think that it scares most players since most are confident they are within the summoner code. Heck most people that get punished are surprised it happened so i dont think its really striking alot of fear. Just a wake up call that certain behavior isnt allowed here and people have noticed you.

Is the Tribunal fair in accessing the entire picture even though it's based on limited evidence? The entire picture, no. Enough of a picture to make an accurate decision enough of the time, yes.

Do actions and programs like The Tribunal help promote Riot or just makes them lose customers? The tribunal does not promote riot in terms of gaining them more players. For one, you have to already be playing to get there so it def does not do that. I do think it helps retention because people who get fed up with bad games and want to leave know that there is more recourse here than other games of this type. It may hurt retention in eliminating some toxic players but, as i said above, I am not sorry to see them go. And who knows how many more would have been lost had we let said toxic play continue.

One thing to mention, tribunal is not Riots only resource. I find tribunal effective because I look at it as a tool to better our community, not the perfect end to all our community problems. It isn't the only one that I would like to see and Riot has mentioned they would like to come out with some incentive based programs to encourge/reward beneficial behavior.