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@Riot Spellvamp Items

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TheyCallMeMoe

Junior Member

08-18-2012

Hello, Riot I was wondering why spell vamp doesn't have its own item like vamp scepter is for life steal. It seems like it would make more sense to have and item like "Tome of Spell Vamp" (I know, very original name right?). This way you could make hextech revolver's pieces be part ap and part spell vamp, champs could itemize for earlier spell vamp, and it would allow for making of a possible ad caster item without tacking on spell vamp to an item. Also I think it would make for a better Haunting Guise by allowing it to be amp tome + amp tome, making it like a Brutalizer for AP champs.

Anyways, thank you for the time of anybody who reads this. Feel free to discuss and make suggestions.


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JustMyBassCannon

Recruiter

08-18-2012

It's because Spell Vamp is statistically stronger than Lifesteal. Spells have a higher base damage than most champions' base AD. The highest base AD is Cho'gath's 129.7, and to my knowledge, all damaging spells have a higher base damage or can hit multiple targets. They may not scale 100% with AP, but AD is almost twice as expensive as AP.

Yeah, Lifesteal and Spell Vamp both require you to push the lane to sustain, but it would still cause problems. Most spells have longer ranges than auto attacks, and there are almost no auto attacks with innate CC.


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TheyCallMeMoe

Junior Member

08-18-2012

All I'm saying is why don't they have some item that cost Approx 500 gold that has 5-6% spell vamp, that way it make itemizing easier for them with hunting guise and creating an ad caster item, because honestly 6% spell vamp early game would be use by vlad and kennen and almost nobody else, because they prioritize spell vamp unlike most mages. Honestly other casters who prioritize it would be getting less bang for there buck compared to an adc with and early vamp scepter so i don't see how it could be over powered, it would just boost lvls 1-4 for champs like kennen and vlad who are both ult reliant mid-late game champs


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JustMyBassCannon

Recruiter

08-19-2012

Okay.

First, an AD spell vamp item is a very tricky subject. In general, the AD casters have been left in the dark because of other classes. They can't really get an AD/SV item, because hybrids (particularly Akali) would be able to buy it with Gunblade and have ridiculously high Spell Vamp, which was imbalanced since they relied on both spells and attacks. And an AD/CDR item isn't likely because Ranged AD carries are balanced with 0% CDR in mind.

Second, a cheap, early game Spell Vamp item could work really well on a number of mages. There are a handful of manaless mages, and then there are champions like Annie and Swain (who get mana return on unit kills), or Morgana and Ahri (who have innate Spell Vamp) who would also benefit. And if all else fails, they could still buy it after their first return to base.


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Fanaticmogg

Senior Member

08-19-2012

I suspect it's just because Spellvamp has been proven to be pretty powerful, and they don't want to risk messing with it due to the potential problems it could cause.

Maybe it could be tested in PBE, but it just seems like Riot might consider it too dangerous.


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PedestrianA

Senior Member

08-19-2012

Seriously I also think riot should consider itemize stats with vamp as a primary item, than a slight tweak with the recipe of the hextech revolver. Btw, those manaless mage are already have quite a tough time considering that they dont synergize with doran's ring. And with a little extra item they would have a much more easier early game as we should not expect people being able to farm up as much as 1200g when they 1st return, given that the 20 ap from amplified tomb is kinda worthless.


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TheyCallMeMoe

Junior Member

08-20-2012

Quote:
Exdeadman:
Okay.

First, an AD spell vamp item is a very tricky subject. In general, the AD casters have been left in the dark because of other classes. They can't really get an AD/SV item, because hybrids (particularly Akali) would be able to buy it with Gunblade and have ridiculously high Spell Vamp, which was imbalanced since they relied on both spells and attacks. And an AD/CDR item isn't likely because Ranged AD carries are balanced with 0% CDR in mind.

Second, a cheap, early game Spell Vamp item could work really well on a number of mages. There are a handful of manaless mages, and then there are champions like Annie and Swain (who get mana return on unit kills), or Morgana and Ahri (who have innate Spell Vamp) who would also benefit. And if all else fails, they could still buy it after their first return to base.


Okay too reply to your first comment I'm not saying riot needs to respond I'm not saying riot needs to do an Ad/Spell Vamp Item now, I'm just saying that by making spell vamp into its own item it offers the opportunity for a future item like this, and also I don't think making an item like this would make a hybrids (like Akali) OP because hybrid champs rely on items that provide AP because Akali (I'm going to use her as an example) does most of her damage from spells not auto attacks, so it is in her best interest to get AP because all of her damaging spells scale with AP while only one scales with AD, so it would not make that much sense for her to build such an item because it would sacrifice her damage.

Secondly, an early spell vamp wouldn't work that great on all champs because it would sacrifice from other key stats that most mages need. Lets say that this hypothetical item cost 475 gold and gave 6 spell vamp, while dorans ring costs the same, but gives 80 health 15 ap and 1 mana regen per sec. The champ that gets the spell vamp item would probably plan for it an get 9% spell vamp from runes and masteries making a total of 15% spell vamp. (Now your probably thinking "Thats broken 15% spell vamp at level 1, OP!!!&quot But what to remember about spell vamp is that it only does 33% of total spell vamp on aoe abilities, and that spells have cooldowns and resource cost( mana, energy, etc) But champs that go this early spell vamp route lose when it comes to damage, because getting spell vamp in masteries means that you cant go the full 21 in offense, and that you sacrifice 15 AP in runes. So is it really worth it for champs that wouldn't eventually build wota to get this early spell vamp? (NO!!!) Because it takes away to much from early health, damage, and mana sustain, and instead puts it to early minor health sustain.

Lastly I want to do some testing on early spell vamp compared to early life steal to support my claim on why early spell vamp would not be OP as people fear, so if you would be interesting in helping add me in game (TheyCallMeMoe)

PS: sorry for the walls of text


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axesandspears

Senior Member

08-20-2012

Quote:
PedestrianA:
Seriously I also think riot should consider itemize stats with vamp as a primary item, than a slight tweak with the recipe of the hextech revolver. Btw, those manaless mage are already have quite a tough time considering that they dont synergize with doran's ring. And with a little extra item they would have a much more easier early game as we should not expect people being able to farm up as much as 1200g when they 1st return, given that the 20 ap from amplified tomb is kinda worthless.

You do realize that mana is a cost-system right?

Technically, mana champions do not get any more benefit from building mana than non-mana champions unless they have some form of scaling off flat mana. They just have to build it in order to keep casting.

Mana regeneration in particular is a non-issue on items because no one can get additional scaling or ap from it directly.

Also, do not try to claim that Doran's Ring is somehow weak for manaless champions when the health and ap are already worth 506 gold compared to the 475 gold cost.

As for spell vamp itself, there is not going to be more for mages nor any more easily digestible form. Spell vamp has proven very imbalanced in larger quantities, which is among the main reasons why WotA and Gunblade have been nerfed so many times.


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Llanite

Senior Member

08-20-2012

Quote:
Exdeadman:
It's because Spell Vamp is statistically stronger than Lifesteal. Spells have a higher base damage than most champions' base AD. The highest base AD is Cho'gath's 129.7, and to my knowledge, all damaging spells have a higher base damage or can hit multiple targets. They may not scale 100% with AP, but AD is almost twice as expensive as AP.

Yeah, Lifesteal and Spell Vamp both require you to push the lane to sustain, but it would still cause problems. Most spells have longer ranges than auto attacks, and there are almost no auto attacks with innate CC.


But spells cost mana.

Auto attack doesnt :<


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Vuther

Senior Member

08-21-2012

Quote:
Llanite:
But spells cost mana.

Auto attack doesnt :<

And bunch of abilities out-range autoattacks. So they heal more for much of the game with a greater degree of safety - if they didn't cost mana they'd absolutely completely out-shine life steal until 40 minutes in a match.

Also, some abilities don't cost mana, albeit the range argument tends to be less relevant on manaless champion.


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