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Kayle Bot support question.

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Cenerae

Senior Member

08-15-2012

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XCodes:
Only Leona is even remotely threatening from the middle of a creep wave. Taric's stun is out-ranged by your RADC's autoattacks, so he can't camp out there without wasting a lot of mana healing himself, and Blitzcrank's grab is useless in the middle of the lane.


This doesn't stop them from darting around the wave to stun or grab you, all the same.

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Even from a support role, a level 6 Nidalee with a Kage's could 100-0 the enemy RADC or Support. Nidalee also makes a great roamer when lane is clear, and can snipe a low-health midlane with her spear.


No, she really can't. Her burst damage isn't high enough to do that early game. Respectable damage? Yes. 100-0? Not even close. Besides, do you really think the enemy carry and support will just sit there and let you? No, they're going to CC and burst you down. Unless you're running with an Ashe, you have no setup for your burst either, so it's extremely risky to try.

Theoretically she can roam and spear snipe, but this usefulness drops off very quickly because Nidalee is an item dependant champion.

Like I said, it's not that you CAN'T support with Nidalee. But the simple, inescapable fact is, she is USELESS without farm once laning is over. Being a support is more than merely helping your partner win a lane. You have to be useful to your team, and for the whole game. Lategame you have an expensive mana costing sustain spell that provides a good AS buff, and situationally helpful debuffing traps. That's it. You don't do anything else. That is not good support material.

If you like using her as a support? Great. Go for it. As long as you're willing to aknowledge that she isn't really designed for the role, I don't really mind either way. I do play some edge-case supports myself from time to time, after all.


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XCodes

Senior Member

08-15-2012

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Cenerae:
This doesn't stop them from darting around the wave to stun or grab you, all the same.

I lol'ed because you think that Taric darts anywhere. Granted, Blitz could be an issue, but he is not even close to being the same monster outside the bushes that he is inside.

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Cenerae:
No, she really can't. Her burst damage isn't high enough to do that early game. Respectable damage? Yes. 100-0? Not even close. Besides, do you really think the enemy carry and support will just sit there and let you? No, they're going to CC and burst you down. Unless you're running with an Ashe, you have no setup for your burst either, so it's extremely risky to try.

By this reasoning, playing Taric is extremely risky because "they're just going to CC and burst you down."

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Cenerae:
Theoretically she can roam and spear snipe, but this usefulness drops off very quickly because Nidalee is an item dependant champion.

Ok, I'm getting kind of annoyed with this. All champions are item dependant champions. No matter what champion you choose to support with, you're going to be a tool late-game unless you get a metric ****ton of assists, and I dare say some kills, too. That said, Nidalee is far from being the worst late-game support, either. She has her great AS Steroid on her E and her Bushwhack does a massive 40% Armor/MR *shred*, which is more amazing than LW/Void because it plays amazingly well with flat penetration. Also, unlike Taric she can do her thing at a safe distance and has an escape, making her item-starved ass a lot less likely to get blown up.


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Cenerae

Senior Member

08-15-2012

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I lol'ed because you think that Taric darts anywhere.


Fine. He can just walk up and stun then. Does it really matter? His zoning range is the same, brush or no brush. If he's brush hugging, you know he's going to be in there all the same even if you don't drop a ward in there to keep an eye on him.

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By this reasoning, playing Taric is extremely risky because "they're just going to CC and burst you down."


Except Taric doesn't initiate a fight by jumping into his chosen target face first so he can perform his combo. He can stun from range.

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Ok, I'm getting kind of annoyed with this. All champions are item dependant champions. No matter what champion you choose to support with, you're going to be a tool late-game unless you get a metric ****ton of assists, and I dare say some kills, too.


Wrong. Good supports have kits that allow them to still be useful without meaningful items. A Janna with no items still has a ton of utility. Yes, with no items, such a Janna would drop in a heartbeat of focus fire late game. That goes without saying. But she isn't obligated to build AP or AD to be helpful. She can afford to build aura and team focused items because her impact on the game won't be lessened for it.

Imagine trying to support as say...Caitlyn. What, exactly, are you going to do late game with aura items? Traps. And a single target slow. That's it. You don't have any other utility, and since you're not built for damage, you don't do anything else. The same applies to Nidalee, though her utility isn't as poor. (It's still sub-par for a support's needs though).

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That said, Nidalee is far from being the worst late-game support, either. She has her great AS Steroid on her E and her Bushwhack does a massive 40% Armor/MR *shred*, which is more amazing than LW/Void because it plays amazingly well with flat penetration. Also, unlike Taric she can do her thing at a safe distance and has an escape, making her item-starved ass a lot less likely to get blown up.


Bushwhack is highly situational. The trap's location is blatantly obvious unless you can bait the enemy tanks and bruisers into brush you pre-trapped with them. Trying to throw it randomly into a teamfight is subject to pot luck. It has an arming time and chances are so-so that the intended target won't be in that spot when it's ready to work. Yes, her AS buff is nice. That's her only reliable utility though. You could be Nunu instead, who's AS buff lasts longer, also grants movespeed, and who has his ice ball to debuff the enemy carry with reliably.

Sure, she can toss those heals out from safety, but that doesn't make her better than Taric somehow, because Taric has TONS more utility (Armor aura, AD and AP aura, a hard CC, a heal, and an armor debuff), and none of it's situational.


So. I'll say it one more time. She CAN be used as support. She DOES offer benefits during the laning phase. But she DOES NOT support well mid to late game, because lack of AP ruins her ability to do more than buff her carry. Plenty of much better supports can do so much more than merely buff their carry in teamfights. If you want to support with her anyway? Fine. Do so. Just please, stop trying to make her out to be the best support in the world, because she's not even close.


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XCodes

Senior Member

08-15-2012

Quote:
Cenerae:
Fine. He can just walk up and stun then. Does it really matter? His zoning range is the same, brush or no brush. If he's brush hugging, you know he's going to be in there all the same even if you don't drop a ward in there to keep an eye on him.

You can't do anything about Taric in an unwarded bush. A Taric in the middle of a creep wave you can take pot-shots at all day, and either force him to initiate at a sub-optimal moment, or drive him back behind his creeps where he's decidedly non-threatening.

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Cenerae:
Except Taric doesn't initiate a fight by jumping into his chosen target face first so he can perform his combo. He can stun from range.

Wrong. Taric doesn't initiate without jumping in his target's face. If he stuns and then keeps his distance, he's either disengaging, peeling, or trying to set up his carry for a favorable trade. He's not committing to a fight.

There's also a spear and a bushwhack in there, somewhere, for Nidalee. If you think she pounces someone at full health then it's no wonder you think she's a sub-par support.

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Cenerae:
Wrong. Good supports have kits that allow them to still be useful without meaningful items. A Janna with no items still has a ton of utility. Yes, with no items, such a Janna would drop in a heartbeat of focus fire late game. That goes without saying. But she isn't obligated to build AP or AD to be helpful. She can afford to build aura and team focused items because her impact on the game won't be lessened for it.

Yes, it will. Without AP, Janna can't clear waves late-game, she can't meaningfully poke with Q, her heal is lackluster, and her shield (along with the shield's AD bonus) drops in <2 autoattacks. Just because she's really good at running away from teamfights without AP doesn't mean her impact on the game is somehow magically the same without AP.

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Cenerae:
Imagine trying to support as say...Caitlyn. What, exactly, are you going to do late game with aura items? Traps. And a single target slow. That's it. You don't have any other utility, and since you're not built for damage, you don't do anything else. The same applies to Nidalee, though her utility isn't as poor. (It's still sub-par for a support's needs though).

Apples and oranges. Nidalee really was designed to be a support champ, Caitlyn was designed to be an ADC.

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Cenerae:
Bushwhack is highly situational. The trap's location is blatantly obvious unless you can bait the enemy tanks and bruisers into brush you pre-trapped with them. Trying to throw it randomly into a teamfight is subject to pot luck. It has an arming time and chances are so-so that the intended target won't be in that spot when it's ready to work. Yes, her AS buff is nice. That's her only reliable utility though. You could be Nunu instead, who's AS buff lasts longer, also grants movespeed, and who has his ice ball to debuff the enemy carry with reliably.

Situational my ass. Even if an enemy only has 100 armor, hitting them with Bushwhack increases physical damage dealt to them by about 30%. Also, it's very easy to aim Bushwhack and other skills that create hazards like Bushwhack: you put them where your enemy wants to be. In the case of a teamfight, that's right at your ADC's feet, so whoever jumps on your ADC gets a nice, fat Armor debuff, setting them up for your ADC to melt them when they start kiting.

EDIT: Also, I forgot to mention, Nidalee's AS Steroid has 100% uptime with 30% CDR. Sure Nunu's has 100% uptime with no CDR, but a supports hardly have a choice but to get CDR seeing as how there are huge chunks of it on almost every single item built out of gp10's.

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Cenerae:
So. I'll say it one more time. She CAN be used as support. She DOES offer benefits during the laning phase. But she DOES NOT support well mid to late game, because lack of AP ruins her ability to do more than buff her carry. Plenty of much better supports can do so much more than merely buff their carry in teamfights. If you want to support with her anyway? Fine. Do so. Just please, stop trying to make her out to be the best support in the world, because she's not even close.

Buff her carry, debuff enemies, and also that potential 500 base damage on her spear doesn't hurt less just because it's late-game. In fact, her good base damages will help her if she runs into the other support while warding or clearing wards.


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Cenerae

Senior Member

08-15-2012

Okay, fine. I give up.

You clearly love Nidalee as support so much you refuse to accept that there's a reason (several, actually, which I already pointed out) nobody uses her as support in any serious levels of play.

Since you won't even aknowledge the points and keep batting them aside with arguments that don't even make sense (Janna doesn't need to poke or clear waves to support her team, for example...and Taric doesn't have to initiate with his face. Really, he doesn't.), I have only one thing left to say.

Calm down, enjoy your day, and perhaps consider actually reading in to other people's points of view next time instead of being so incredibly defensive and making best-case scenarios for one thing and dismissing the other outright..


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