Kayle Bot support question.

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ChauclateThunder

Senior Member

08-14-2012

I like to play Kayle but I never get to run her top. So I say I will run her support. But should I run runes and masteries that are support or should I stick to the AD setup? I've had more flops trying to use support items then AD items but when I support like a support the team seems to win on a whole new level of equal'ness if you know what I mean.

Usually by mid to late game I'm roaming taking out wards, catching split pushers or taking towers solo. But if when my early game suffers then all I seem to be good for is a well played R, Q and W in team fights.

I've seen the same thing happen with Nidalee support where sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't but where does the misstep happen? Is it in the items or the runes and mastery page???


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Cenerae

Senior Member

08-14-2012

The problem is largely with your choice of supports. Neither Nidalee nor Kayle really offer much as actual supports, since they're damage dealers with utility. Nidalee has only her heal/AS buff, which is disgustingly expensive on the mana, and Kayle's got her mediocre heal and her ultimate, plus a single target slow.

Compare those support outlooks to the typical supports and you'll see why you have mixed sucess. You'll never have a large impact on the game since (outside of Kayle's ult) none of your abilities -do- much without any items to back them up. If you want a spammable AS buff, instead of Nidalee, be Nunu. You can permahaste your carry and debuff the enemy carry, complete with a 'cc me' ult to distract. If you want to save your carry's ass from focus fire, pick Janna or Soraka. None of these picks will end up useless, even if they don't have a good start.

Unfortunate? Perhaps. But there's really not much you can do about it. Nidalee and Kayle are too item dependant to make good supports.


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ChauclateThunder

Senior Member

08-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cenerae View Post
The problem is largely with your choice of supports. Neither Nidalee nor Kayle really offer much as actual supports, since they're damage dealers with utility. Nidalee has only her heal/AS buff, which is disgustingly expensive on the mana, and Kayle's got her mediocre heal and her ultimate, plus a single target slow.

Compare those support outlooks to the typical supports and you'll see why you have mixed sucess. You'll never have a large impact on the game since (outside of Kayle's ult) none of your abilities -do- much without any items to back them up. If you want a spammable AS buff, instead of Nidalee, be Nunu. You can permahaste your carry and debuff the enemy carry, complete with a 'cc me' ult to distract. If you want to save your carry's ass from focus fire, pick Janna or Soraka. None of these picks will end up useless, even if they don't have a good start.

Unfortunate? Perhaps. But there's really not much you can do about it. Nidalee and Kayle are too item dependant to make good supports.
I get all of what you are saying. Totally. But on the flip side, when does the metta need shaking up? They create new champs that are supposed to fill these roles but are still not seeing any more use such as Lulu. Or what you play all the time Soarak/NuNu/Jana is banned or picked and now what you have left is what you don't play or have played in different roles. Originally Leona was saw as a jungler and soon that was proven a fail idea when she became bot support for aggressive lanes.

Before I get into what I didn't want to talk about let me be clear here where I wanted to take this question. When you play a support role should you go through all the support points A-C or does it still work if you skip the support points A-C for say top laining points D-E?


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Cenerae

Senior Member

08-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChauclateThunder View Post
I get all of what you are saying. Totally. But on the flip side, when does the metta need shaking up? They create new champs that are supposed to fill these roles but are still not seeing any more use such as Lulu. Or what you play all the time Soarak/NuNu/Jana is banned or picked and now what you have left is what you don't play or have played in different roles. Originally Leona was saw as a jungler and soon that was proven a fail idea when she became bot support for aggressive lanes.

Before I get into what I didn't want to talk about let me be clear here where I wanted to take this question. When you play a support role should you go through all the support points A-C or does it still work if you skip the support points A-C for say top laining points D-E?
Well, the main problem with supports, is that to be an adequate support, you need to be powerful enough without items to still be useful. Look at Janna's kit. It's REDICULOUS compared to what most champions get. They've had to smack her AP ratios down several times because as a mage she provides adequate damage and rediculous utility. Same with Soraka when it was realised that mid Soraka was disgusting. There are a lot of champions that can work surprisingly well as supports though, saying that. Leona and Blitz don't really support, but they don't need items to do their job, because they're naturally tanky and have tons of CC. If you're willing to look on the edge case picks, then you have champs like Orianna that have tons of utility in their kit - but they have issues that stop them from being truly good at it (in Ori's case, it's how fast she chomps through her mana). They can be viable in nonserious games, including Kayle and Nidalee, though their actual contribution to the team is going to vary wildly from game to game.

As for your question on 'support points', I'm afraid I don't follow your meaning there.


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thepantsparty

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Senior Member

08-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChauclateThunder View Post
But on the flip side, when does the metta need shaking up?
Playing a champion in a role that they aren't very good at doesn't "shake up the meta," it just makes you lose games.


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XCodes

Senior Member

08-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cenerae View Post
Unfortunate? Perhaps. But there's really not much you can do about it. Nidalee and Kayle are too item dependant to make good supports.
If any support in the game makes Taric, Blitzcrank, Leona, etc. absolutely worthless as a Support, it's Nidalee. She starts the game with as much AP as she can cram into her runepage/masteries and constantly traps side-bushes. Without bush control, these supports have their main shtick made significantly less effective. Blitz can't grab from hiding, and Taric/Leona can't use bushes to close. Spear harass comes at level 2, and at level 6 you have ridiculous, mana-free burst with cat form.

Also, her heal is expensive, but it has an amazing AP ratio as far as heals go, and it has a AS steroid attached to it.


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HungryHungryHOB0

Junior Member

08-14-2012

I think some people forget that you can also take a bruiser bot lane and make it a "kill lane'

Malphite and Pantheon (and even Wu-Kong) especially shine in lanes where they can force kills bot lane and make it living hell. Then they build tanky and become counter-carries (hopefully) in latter team fights.

It's something not seen to often, but it's not unusual for this setup to be successful


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Cenerae

Senior Member

08-14-2012

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Originally Posted by XCodes View Post
If any support in the game makes Taric, Blitzcrank, Leona, etc. absolutely worthless as a Support, it's Nidalee. She starts the game with as much AP as she can cram into her runepage/masteries and constantly traps side-bushes. Without bush control, these supports have their main shtick made significantly less effective. Blitz can't grab from hiding, and Taric/Leona can't use bushes to close. Spear harass comes at level 2, and at level 6 you have ridiculous, mana-free burst with cat form.

Also, her heal is expensive, but it has an amazing AP ratio as far as heals go, and it has a AS steroid attached to it.
Not really.

Bushwhack spam is annoying, but it hardly prevents them from standing in the middle of their friendly creep line, ready to pounce on the carry when they go in to lasthit. Spear harrass is predictable and easily avoided. You can't trap spam AND spear spam AND heal spam. In fact, you can't even really just plain heal spam. Your mana pool will take a nosedive.

At level 6, sure, you have decent melee ranged, cc-less harrass. It doesn't set up kills though, and you're going to eat some counter harrass if you try it, if not get killed outright.

Her heal does have an amazing AP ratio, yes. It does have an AS steroid, yes. As AP Nidalee, it's a very strong spell. As support Nidalee who doesn't get much, it's not that good apart from the AS steroid. Given that and her Bushwack is the entirity of her utility...that just flat out pales compared to what other supports offer.

Can you do it? Sure. Just as long as you accept that it's more of a a 'fun' choice, than a practical one. Much like running Gangplank as support is. (I do love my Gangplank support...though really, it's not that useful once laning is done)


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FlowyS

Senior Member

08-14-2012

If you want to do Kayle support, you have to take advantage of your Q and E. It's similar to Sona support, support through tons of damage!

You have a couple of choices to skill. I recommened either max Q or max W. Maxing Q will be very aggressive, maxing W will give heal and a movement speed boost for lots of kiting. It's up to you which to pick, Maxing W is generally better for lanes which need movement + sustain and maxing Q is better for straight up damage. Don't forget to put a skill in E or else you'll be stuck playing melee Kayle forever. Depending on which you max, your main role should be damage! W can also be used to speed up allies to make them chase enemies faster.

using Kayle as support, I recommened at most two cheap gp/10s and then start building either Guisnoo's Rageblade or Zeke's Herald. If your team is winning, I recommend building a Zeke's Herald. If your team is losing and your carry is failing behind, I also recommend the Rageblade because Zeke's Herald on a weak carry isn't very powerful. From there on, Trinity Force, Nashor's Tooth, Infinity Edge, and Aegis of the Legion are all good items to pick up. If you ever get to end game, Kayle doubles as another ad carry!


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XCodes

Senior Member

08-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cenerae View Post
Bushwhack spam is annoying, but it hardly prevents them from standing in the middle of their friendly creep line, ready to pounce on the carry when they go in to lasthit. Spear harrass is predictable and easily avoided. You can't trap spam AND spear spam AND heal spam. In fact, you can't even really just plain heal spam. Your mana pool will take a nosedive.
Only Leona is even remotely threatening from the middle of a creep wave. Taric's stun is out-ranged by your RADC's autoattacks, so he can't camp out there without wasting a lot of mana healing himself, and Blitzcrank's grab is useless in the middle of the lane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cenerae View Post
At level 6, sure, you have decent melee ranged, cc-less harrass. It doesn't set up kills though, and you're going to eat some counter harrass if you try it, if not get killed outright.
Even from a support role, a level 6 Nidalee with a Kage's could 100-0 the enemy RADC or Support. Nidalee also makes a great roamer when lane is clear, and can snipe a low-health midlane with her spear.


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