Running Garen Numbers on PBE

First Riot Post
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SuicideCreamPuff

Senior Member

08-10-2012

who is in charge of twitch changes and the like?


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Noraver

Senior Member

08-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Ah, I see the problem in this calculation. His base stats were also changed but you're not doing the math on that.

He has 4 less starting AD and gains 0.5 more per level - his AD scaling is now 56.1 + 3.5 rather than 60.1 + 3.

In general, Judgement's base damage without flat AD items is stronger or on par at every rank of the skill. With flat AD itemization, Judgment doesn't snowball as fast or as hard early game - However, it means that AD penetration is a far stronger option in general due to the higher bases.
That's the problem, Xypherous.
I love you man, but these choices are just... Off.
You nerfed his early game, which was the only thing he HAD.
He can't even reach late-game now.
(Really hoping you weren't the one making these messy changes, since you said you were busy with new items :S)


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Duke Br0heimer

Senior Member

08-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous
Yes - this is absolutely true. A cursory glance at 1.1 total AD vs. 1.4 bonus AD would've been sufficient to tell you that.

The problem we identified wasn't that Garen couldn't build damage and get damage out in the late game sense - but that he had to walk an incredibly fine line between building offense and defense in order to do so. On live, a Garen with IE/Atma's/Youmu's/etc. would deal an amazing amount of AoE damage and utterly blow up as soon as something touched them.

In short - it's not that he couldn't built glass cannon and deal a million damage - it's how practical building damage items was in the first place given how you exploded. Hence the 'W' changes to enable to him to need fewer resistances to actually go out and do his thing.
Well, we'll see how that's gonna play out.


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Neko tan

Senior Member

08-10-2012

Played a Darius v Garen today. I was Garen. I built pretty tanky Garen with some damage. I had like 3.5khp.

Darius had two tank items, and two damage items, with around 3khp.

I was in a legitimate 1v1 mid with him and my damage output compared to his was like movement speed on a Nasus slow. I did a grand total of 500 damage before he destroyed me. He even said in /all chat that I was just a big rock. He's like a boulder with spikes that breathes fire.

He was right. Garen feels useless late game.


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Hazdoc

Senior Member

08-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythless View Post
lol, no. Atma's isn't worth buy at all.
not a buy, despite the fact that Garen is getting more free resists now, meaning his effective HP will be even greater, meaning getting more HP will make him RIDICULOUSLY tanky?

I don't like that his damage is getting hit, but if theres one thing this change is going to do, its going to make him tankier.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

08-10-2012
5 of 16 Riot Posts

Quote:
Yup. Basically building the all important Infinity Edge will be an overall damage decrease.
Potentially, depending on how frequently the critical strike proc works - if you get absolutely zero critical strikes on the ability - this will be true just due to raw damage calculations.

However, the thing about Infinity Edge and Judgment interaction works is because Judgment only did critical bonus damage on the bonus portion of the ability, your infinity edge critical strike could only deal critical bonus damage off the 80 damage from Infinity Edge.

However, with total AD ratios and Infinity Edge - your infinity edge critical strikes now also critically strike off your base AD as well - which means that at level 9, your infinity edge critical strike is not only multiplying the 80 damage but also the 90 base damage that you have in the ratio - thus the critical portion of the ability can now multiply the 170 damage in the ratio as well - making the critical strike portion far more effective than before.


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Slashiroth

Senior Member

08-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by GodofBunnies View Post
plain and simple:
ya about to make the kayle blunder, nerf an already bad champion.

he is weak and u just have to shove him into the mud. maybe ya should make his aa and abilities damage himself instead of the target while u r at it. so people will know he is bad and dont play him, rather than tricking scrub into playing him
Kayle is weak?

She can destroy just about any melee champ in lane


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hashinshin

Senior Member

08-10-2012

You SAY you want to make him competitive, but all I HEAR is "we want to nerf his pubstomping." Where exactly does the competitive stuff come in? Are we going to log in on patch day and find out SURPRISE, JUDGMENT NOW HAS A 2.0 AD RATIO NOT A 1.1 AD RATIO!

All I hear is 5 nerfs to reduce his pub stomping, a nerf to his late game, and a SINGLE TINY BUFF to that exact moment in time when Garen has a sunfire cape at 15 minutes.

Atma's got nerfed. This is a reality. The item that used to make Garen somewhat tolerable is no longer a viable item. He went from meh to super meh. You are now buff-nerfing a super meh character.


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UsoRemix

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Senior Member

08-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
What advantage does Garen's ultimate have over Darius's?

What in Garen's new kit compensates for the power differential?
how about having no mana limitations? -.- people always compare darius to garen w/o reminding themselves one has mana and the other doesn't. If you want Riot to give Garen as much damage as Darius has, Riot will slap on a resource bar for Garen. Its that simple.


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Marisa

Senior Member

08-10-2012

There are a number of core problems with Garen:
1) Slow damage. Not low damage, but damage that is balanced around Garen consistently sitting on a target for 3 seconds and perhaps even wasting another second-and-a-half to ulti them. He doesn't contribute to a burst/catch composition because of this and he doesn't really have strong sustained damage either due to relatively long CDs. The problem with this is that, because he has so little lockdown, he gives opponents too many opportunities to escape/set up defenses such as buffs/heals/peels/shields/flashes or kill him.
2) No peel potential. He is a meat tank with no peel potential at all because his only cc is a silence and because he cannot reliably proc on-hit peels because of how long his E is; he will lose DPS itemizing for his E if he peels with something like Mallet or he will not peel outside of doing damage if he chooses to use E.
3) Cannot DPS tanks reliably without R. This is the problem that makes all the other problems incredibly valid; if he could kill tanks effectively, then it wouldn't matter that he couldn't always reach the carry. However, because he gets countered so hard by armor, his damage against tanks falls tremendously and allows him to be peeled or kited hard.

It's not that his damage is really that bad; it's more that he loses his role after 20 minutes rolls around. Champions simply get so much better at defending themselves that his binary combo becomes ineffective.

I'd suggest doing something simple and just give him % Armor penetration on leveling his ulti so that his damage doesn't fall off so tremendously against targets that stack armor.