Running Garen Numbers on PBE

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Rythless

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
If you feel that way, you're probably correct that I'm living in a world of assumptions that's almost completely off of what builds and itemization that are optimal currently.

However, I feel that's our main disagreement - I fundamentally don't want Garen to be a character who must stomp on his lane in order to be relevant. Granted, that's a lot of what competitive top-lane is at the highest tiers - which is a problem that has to be solved but that's a problem that a single champion cannot tackle.

The core thing right now with Garen on live is that he *absolutely* must stomp his lane in order to be relevant at all mid to late game. On lane, if you "tie" a lane versus Garen, Garen automatically loses. While this is intrinsic to Garen's feel on live - I don't think this is ultimately healthy for the champion overall.

Many of the things I've touched is to hit Garen's ability to simply stomp his lane out in order for total dominance - but I really want to make sure that Garen also doesn't need to stomp his lane out in order to be relevant. Unfortunately, at very high ELO - top lane is so incredibly snowbally that this is always the case - but top lane is something we need to fix in other ways - some of which do include nerfs and changes to some of the most overpowered top-laners at this time.

We'll see as time goes and adjust as needed.
Fair enough. I still don't understand why his trade-offs have to be so dramatic. You simply could have just given him a better late game and called it fair. Basically you are just going the opposite direction of where he is right now. Going from good early/weak late to weak early/good late. The problem is, one of these gives you the opportunity to win the game, the latter does not. I am really sorry you can't see that.

Top lane doesn't need to be fixed through nerfing champions, you need to think about changing your design philosophy to bringing certain champions up to power with newer champions, rather than nerfing newer champions and creating power creep. It's actually very sad that as long as this has been happening, your design team hasn't been able to adapt.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

CLG HotdogGG

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
In general, a champion whose role is to completely invalidate the opposing character pick no matter who they are and then vanish is interesting for picks - but pretty bad for actual gameplay.

This isn't to say that counter-picks are bad - but if your role is solely to crush a lane and then be irrelevant - I'm not sure that's good. I feel like succesfull counter-picking is more interesting than 'This character auto-wins lane X and then disappears.'
Hm...I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, then.

I think having champions like that able to transition into the late-game by building active items and auras would be incredibly interesting. I used to run a mean Shurelia's/Aegis/LW/Atma's Pantheon until Atma's was nerfed. It was a lot of fun. You ran a risk and the enemy team had plenty of gameplay options to counter it.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Croanin

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
Darius to Garen is a great comparison for elucidating the weakness in Garen's ultimate.

It has a 40 second longer cooldown, and does less damage than Darius's, especially against top-lane champions building Mres.

If Darius builds zero AD, he will deal 320 True Damage.

Garen will deal 232.5 against a 50 MR target missing 1000 health.

That's a ridiculous difference even if they had the same cooldown, and no resetability.

Do you know how many champions get 50 MR or above?

Even at 25 MR, Garen is dealing 372 damage. Just 50 more than a zero AD Darius? Against someone with less MR than base? Missing 1000 health?

And be honest, is the rest of Darius's kit weak by any means.

No.

They play the same lane, perform the same tanky DPS role, it is a great comparison.
Darius's ultimate is better I can't deny but thats really it. I've never had a problem with Garen's ultimate, its strong enough to kill your laning opponent and strong enough to kill the carries in teamfights. The problem is he has no killing potential with it on CD because his Q can't crit and his Judgement scales like horsecrap.

Garen was clearly in mind when Darius was designed but my point is I feel Riven has a far more unfair advantage. I mean they both dont use a resource, this is huge! If a champion can match there damage it cost them mana so over time there going to lose. Its because Darius actually does use "some" mana that I can beat a decent one by baiting his fail spin. So tell me why does Riven get a stun, more mobility and scale way better? It doesn't make sense.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xypherous

Systems Designer

08-11-2012
12 of 16 Riot Posts

Quote:
I feel that Garen, with these changes, is less tanky from W's active, does less damage with E, and is going to be even more heavily kited due to slow removal on Q.
W's active now lasts twice as long at max rank - so while you won't notice the effect until late game fights - it'll be there when you need it.

Less damage from E is somewhat true in the snowball flat AD case, pre-critical strike. True, you may argue that that's the only case right now due to how he works at the moment on live - if you run the math - his damage when he's not completely curb-stomping is much more consistent. Check the original post for revised damage calculations post level 9 for the bonus AD breakdown cases.

Heavily kited due to slow removal on Q - This is the change that I'm most worried about that we'll probably have to track the hardest - We flattened Q's cooldown to 8 seconds at all ranks and reduced the time it takes for the proc to expire if you can reach someone.

Quote:
A quality of Life change for Garen: Garen's spin takes 2.5 seconds to complete its damage cycles, but the animation lasts for 3 seconds. Garen is literally wasting 0.5 seconds of time to complete the animation which results in a net damage loss in his combo'ing. Can this 0.5 seconds of animation time be removed?
This is fixed on the PBE.

Also - Garen's Q leaps at them if they're running away from you so you don't Q in place looking silly.

Quote:
Top lane doesn't need to be fixed through nerfing champions, you need to think about changing your design philosophy to bringing certain champions up to power with newer champions, rather than nerfing newer champions and creating power creep. It's actually very sad that as long as this has been happening, your design team hasn't been able to adapt.
Top lane has a wide variety of problems with it - some of which are champion specific - some of which are map specific - and some of which are minion specific.

However, power creeping everyone doesn't solve anything - it makes it worse overall for the game. Darius' power level and frustration is in direct result to just how powerful you have to be to exist in top lane.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Super Explosion

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noraver View Post
That's the really sad part. Darius can peel, he's a threat, and has a minor CC pull to keep people in the fight, to pull them away from a carry, to initiate an unexpected fight, etc.

Garen has a silence that baits himself into getting kited. That's all.
Not to mention, his passive is literally 100% useless. Why give him a passive that's literally negated in a team fight? I can't think of another champion in this game who has a passive that does nothing while in battle.

Correct me if I'm wrong on that.
Garen's passive is a laning and ambush passive.

It is great for its role in holding a lane at all costs, which is a main reason one plays Garen.

He's designed to be away from base for long periods of time, and to capitalize on poor positioning or poor visibility.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Jassu

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Heavily kited due to slow removal on Q - This is the change that I'm most worried about that we'll probably have to track the hardest - We flattened Q's cooldown to 8 seconds at all ranks and reduced the time it takes for the proc to expire if you can reach someone.
Though, according to data mining, Courage now grants 30% tenacity (I'm unsure of whether or not that's on the passive or active, however), which has the potential to help in this department a bit.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Marisa

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
W's active now lasts twice as long at max rank - so while you won't notice the effect until late game fights - it'll be there when you need it.

Less damage from E is somewhat true in the snowball flat AD case, pre-critical strike. True, you may argue that that's the only case right now due to how he works at the moment on live - if you run the math - his damage when he's not completely curb-stomping is much more consistent. Check the original post for revised damage calculations post level 9 for the bonus AD breakdown cases.

Heavily kited due to slow removal on Q - This is the change that I'm most worried about that we'll probably have to track the hardest - We flattened Q's cooldown to 8 seconds at all ranks and reduced the time it takes for the proc to expire if you can reach someone.



This is fixed on the PBE.
It seems like a lot of the anger in this thread is coming from lack of information: for example, I didn't realize that Q would be able to crit after this change until after you mentioned it. For the purpose of discussion, could you list at least the more subtle changes to Garen that people aren't aware of from user-created PBE lists?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Noraver

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
Garen's passive is a laning and ambush passive.

It is great for its role in holding a lane at all costs, which is a main reason one plays Garen.

He's designed to be away from base for long periods of time, and to capitalize on poor positioning or poor visibility.
I'd suggest rereading the post, now that I edited it. Riot intends to promote aggressive gameplay, making Garen's passive basically useless. Do you honestly want to stand back for ten seconds and lose creep so you can heal, while that Riven freefarms and freezes your lane?

And with this new style of gameplay, teams tend to wander around holding hands. Again, this passive doesn't help him, since he should always be at or near full health with his team by his side.

See the problem now? =/

Xypherous, care to comment on this?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

MandyMemory

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
With that build, his damage would be increased with 'E' - because the skill scales much better off of your critical strike stat than it did before due to the 43% critical strike chance you have.

180 Bonus AD * 1.4 AD Ratio = 252 Bonus Damage.
180 Bonus AD + 119 Base Damage * 1.1 AD Ratio = 328 Damage in the Ratio.

Essentially, Garen's E previously would add critical strike damage to the 252 - However, in the new one, it would add critical strike damage to the 328 in this case - which means the benefit that you're getting from critical strike is what's scaling the ability late game (with that build specifically.)

Early game Brutalizer effectiveness is down - but since his Judgment has marginally greater base damage - the optimization here is to swap out flat AD for penetration. Granted, Chain Vest counters you pretty hard at that stage (but it would for both the flat AD build or the penetration build) but since Critical Strike is no longer a wasted stat due to the fact that Q now crits and E's effective multiplier from critical strikes are greatly magnified - the vast majority of ghostblade stats are relevant to you. (Okay, the attack speed on the active still sucks for you. That's just Ghostblade's problem.)
So, judgement has pretty low base damage now, why not just let a whole tick crit?

GP really doesn't have to be that unique.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Alyran

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

08-11-2012

I feel like we should wait and see on this one. Xyph seems to have a bit of Midas' touch when it comes to his interaction with champs.

Except instead of gold, he makes them OP, even if they appear to suck at first glance.