Running Garen Numbers on PBE

First Riot Post
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Zaphas

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
If you feel that way, you're probably correct that I'm living in a world of assumptions that's almost completely off of what builds and itemization that are optimal currently.

However, I feel that's our main disagreement - I fundamentally don't want Garen to be a character who must stomp on his lane in order to be relevant. Granted, that's a lot of what competitive top-lane is at the highest tiers - which is a problem that has to be solved but that's a problem that a single champion cannot tackle.

The core thing right now with Garen on live is that he *absolutely* must stomp his lane in order to be relevant at all mid to late game. On lane, if you "tie" a lane versus Garen, Garen automatically loses. While this is intrinsic to Garen's feel on live - I don't think this is ultimately healthy for the champion overall.

Many of the things I've touched is to hit Garen's ability to simply stomp his lane out in order for total dominance - but I really want to make sure that Garen also doesn't need to stomp his lane out in order to be relevant.

We'll see as time goes and adjust as needed.
I understand where you're coming from but... where does Garen seriously improve here? Decisive Strike critting will be a good one for certain, the Judgement critting...not as much. Garen's earlygame IS getting gutted pretty hard, almost to the level of what you guys did with Urgot's early game a while back. I don't see where the "late game" viability is coming in. Garen is already absolutely atrocious to play in a game where there is a Janna, a Skarner, a Xin Zhao, Tristana, anyone who can displace Garen, or where there is an abundance of CC.

I feel that Garen, with these changes, is less tanky from W's active, does less damage with E, and is going to be even more heavily kited due to slow removal on Q.


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Karn Bishop

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
If you feel that way, you're probably correct that I'm living in a world of assumptions that's almost completely off of what builds and itemization that are optimal currently.

However, I feel that's our main disagreement - I fundamentally don't want Garen to be a character who must stomp on his lane in order to be relevant. Granted, that's a lot of what competitive top-lane is at the highest tiers - which is a problem that has to be solved but that's a problem that a single champion cannot tackle.

The core thing right now with Garen on live is that he *absolutely* must stomp his lane in order to be relevant at all mid to late game. On lane, if you "tie" a lane versus Garen, Garen automatically loses. While this is intrinsic to Garen's feel on live - I don't think this is ultimately healthy for the champion overall.

Many of the things I've touched is to hit Garen's ability to simply stomp his lane out in order for total dominance - but I really want to make sure that Garen also doesn't need to stomp his lane out in order to be relevant. Unfortunately, at very high ELO - top lane is so incredibly snowbally that this is always the case - but top lane is something we need to fix in other ways - some of which do include nerfs and changes to some of the most overpowered top-laners at this time.

We'll see as time goes and adjust as needed.
Until thats fixed though this leaves garen between a rock and a hard place, i thought the idea was to avoid another eve tier champion thats known as a troll pick, and nothing against you Xypherous but thats all i see when i look at these changes, a new eve tier champion.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Croanin View Post
Stop comparing Darius to Garen...there similar but its a stupid comparison. Garen not only stomps him out in lane but is also less dependant on an initiator.

Riven is a far more solid comparison. The changes to that keep Garen's early game in check just seem to be a precaution because Riot knows that Riven and all her non resource using self is freakin broken.

Overall Garen will never be a viable competitive pick because unless Riot either nerfs Riven to a gimmicky status like Garen or gives her mana like every other champion with such a potent kit he will never be able to keep up with her. Garen's kit is just so **** linear while Riven is versatile as hell.
Darius to Garen is a great comparison for elucidating the weakness in Garen's ultimate.

It has a 40 second longer cooldown, and does less damage than Darius's, especially against top-lane champions building Mres.

If Darius builds zero AD, he will deal 320 True Damage.

Garen will deal 232.5 against a 50 MR target missing 1000 health.

That's a ridiculous difference even if they had the same cooldown, and no resetability.

Do you know how many champions get 50 MR or above?

Even at 25 MR, Garen is dealing 372 damage. Just 50 more than a zero AD Darius? Against someone with less MR than base? Missing 1000 health?

And be honest, is the rest of Darius's kit weak by any means.

No.

They play the same lane, perform the same tanky DPS role, it is a great comparison.


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Croanin

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
If you feel that way, you're probably correct that I'm living in a world of assumptions that's almost completely off of what builds and itemization that are optimal currently.

However, I feel that's our main disagreement - I fundamentally don't want Garen to be a character who must stomp on his lane in order to be relevant. Granted, that's a lot of what competitive top-lane is at the highest tiers - which is a problem that has to be solved but that's a problem that a single champion cannot tackle.

The core thing right now with Garen on live is that he *absolutely* must stomp his lane in order to be relevant at all mid to late game. On lane, if you "tie" a lane versus Garen, Garen automatically loses. While this is intrinsic to Garen's feel on live - I don't think this is ultimately healthy for the champion overall.

Many of the things I've touched is to hit Garen's ability to simply stomp his lane out in order for total dominance - but I really want to make sure that Garen also doesn't need to stomp his lane out in order to be relevant. Unfortunately, at very high ELO - top lane is so incredibly snowbally that this is always the case - but top lane is something we need to fix in other ways - some of which do include nerfs and changes to some of the most overpowered top-laners at this time.

We'll see as time goes and adjust as needed.
Pretty much this, at least Riot is making an effort, if they derped they just made a Low ELO pubstomper more unviable and you should just play Riven instead anyway.

Only idiots let Garen snowball, all you have to do is stalemate him and you win. Its not hard to avoid a tin clad warrior when your around 50% health.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

08-11-2012
11 of 16 Riot Posts

Quote:
Why so much condescension lately?
It's probably a sign that I've been posting too much.


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Malurth

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Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
It's probably a sign that I've been posting too much.
I think the community at large would disagree heavily.

In fact, they may not be able to reach a consensus as to whether it's possible for you to post too much.


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Duke Br0heimer

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
If you feel that way, you're probably correct that I'm living in a world of assumptions that's almost completely off of what builds and itemization that are optimal currently.
Someone please tell me I'm not the only one slighty concerned by this.


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Noraver

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
Darius to Garen is a great comparison for elucidating the weakness in Garen's ultimate.
...
They play the same lane, perform the same tanky DPS role, it is a great comparison.
That's the really sad part. Darius can peel, he's a threat, and has a minor CC pull to keep people in the fight, to pull them away from a carry, to initiate an unexpected fight, etc.

Garen has a silence that baits himself into getting kited. That's all.

Not to mention, his passive is literally 100% useless. Why give him a passive that's literally negated in a team fight?
I can't think of another champion in this game who has a passive that does nothing while in battle.
It also doesn't help that you want to achieve and promote a more aggressive style of gameplay, but give Garen a passive that now makes him wait 10 whole seconds of doing nothing to have minor health regen. There is NO reason to have this passive anymore.

Correct me if I'm wrong on that.


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IonCannonKarthus

Senior Member

08-11-2012

The only upside to this is that jungle Garen might be viable due to the percentage of reduction on judgement reduced.

Other than that...this sucks....alot


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FoxyLocksy

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Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
If you feel that way, you're probably correct that I'm living in a world of assumptions that's almost completely off of what builds and itemization that are optimal currently.

However, I feel that's our main disagreement - I fundamentally don't want Garen to be a character who must stomp on his lane in order to be relevant. Granted, that's a lot of what competitive top-lane is at the highest tiers - which is a problem that has to be solved but that's a problem that a single champion cannot tackle.

The core thing right now with Garen on live is that he *absolutely* must stomp his lane in order to be relevant at all mid to late game. On lane, if you "tie" a lane versus Garen, Garen automatically loses. While this is intrinsic to Garen's feel on live - I don't think this is ultimately healthy for the champion overall.

Many of the things I've touched is to hit Garen's ability to simply stomp his lane out in order for total dominance - but I really want to make sure that Garen also doesn't need to stomp his lane out in order to be relevant.

We'll see as time goes and adjust as needed.
I dunno if you remember me from a year and a half ago up to about a year ago, but I made a lot of threads about Garen's old nerfs and how I, and many, predicted that he would be unviable. We predicted correctly and he has basically been unviable for a year and a half.

I'm glad you guys changed the ratio back to full AD (That's what I argued for all of the time but you, Guinsoo, Morello, and Phreak all argued against me) but his ratio is too low. It should be atleast 0.8 - 1.2 or a flat 1.2 with every rank with slightly higher base damage. An issue you have to keep in mind with Judgement is how slow the damage comes out AND he cannot auto attack during it. Armor stacking has been a big then for about a year and a half and Garen cannot go against that with such low damage and base damage on Judgment. Also, what is nice to see is that an early game avarice blade is no longer useless for him.

Also, I wish critical strike damage bonus on Judgement was normalized in some way. Perhaps making it like this: Translate Garen's %chance to crit to %damage increase on Judgment with a 1:1 ratio (1:1.x, x being with more critical strike damage) because I've always disliked Garen's only true scaling to be completely random. Sometimes AD Garen will crit only one strike on E and do nothing, or he can crit 5 to 6 strikes and get a penta kill.

A quality of Life change for Garen: Garen's spin takes 2.5 seconds to complete its damage cycles, but the animation lasts for 3 seconds. Garen is literally wasting 0.5 seconds of time to complete the animation which results in a net damage loss in his combo'ing. Can this 0.5 seconds of animation time be removed?

Big problems with Garen:
-Cannot trade well early game because of Judgment's mechanics
-Spells have hard cool-downs that cannot be reduced
-Too easy to kite.
-Damage scaling is too random.