Running Garen Numbers on PBE

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CLG HotdogGG

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Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaphas View Post
Ok, but the problem I'm having is that Garen now actually has to build items that have crit on them, but that do not have other AD carry stats like attack speed that are undesirable for him. Which leave the options at IE, Ghostblade, and nerfed up Atma's, which is an item very, very few bruisers get nowadays.

This leaves Garen in a quandry, because you've now made him so that he has to actually BUILD tanky items in order to survive, whereas before, you could actually rely on Courage passive to hold you over with 25 Armor/MR, so that you could buy that Ghostblade, that IE, and actually try to get him to a viable lategame.

Honestly, I think at this point I'd prefer unchanged Garen over this, having tried both out. Was looking forward to changes, but if this is what you're coming up with... keep him the same.
This.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

08-11-2012
9 of 16 Riot Posts

Quote:
Sorry man, I am usually on your side for a lot of the changes you make, but this time you are just so far off from understanding this champion that it hurts to even read your reasoning or shall we say "erroneous" solutions.
If you feel that way, you're probably correct that I'm living in a world of assumptions that's almost completely off of what builds and itemization that are optimal currently.

However, I feel that's our main disagreement - I fundamentally don't want Garen to be a character who must stomp on his lane in order to be relevant. Granted, that's a lot of what competitive top-lane is at the highest tiers - which is a problem that has to be solved but that's a problem that a single champion cannot tackle.

The core thing right now with Garen on live is that he *absolutely* must stomp his lane in order to be relevant at all mid to late game. On lane, if you "tie" a lane versus Garen, Garen automatically loses. While this is intrinsic to Garen's feel on live - I don't think this is ultimately healthy for the champion overall.

Many of the things I've touched is to hit Garen's ability to simply stomp his lane out in order for total dominance - but I really want to make sure that Garen also doesn't need to stomp his lane out in order to be relevant. Unfortunately, at very high ELO - top lane is so incredibly snowbally that this is always the case - but top lane is something we need to fix in other ways - some of which do include nerfs and changes to some of the most overpowered top-laners at this time.

We'll see as time goes and adjust as needed.


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Malurth

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Senior Member

08-11-2012

Xyph, I'm afraid these changes leave me confused.

His E damage has gone down, and his tankiness from W without items has gone down. How does this incentivize him to build less defensive items if AD is less valuable to buy while armor/MR are now more valuable to buy?

Further, I'm a bit troubled at the lack of a one-point-wonder skill; both Q and W have heavy incentives to level now.

Lastly, I'm concerned about his early game: no doubt, it needed to get toned down. It was possibly the most brutal top lane had. But nearly every single change makes his early game weaker; I'm concerned it may have gone too far, given the multitude of nerfs at once.


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CLG HotdogGG

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08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
If you feel that way, you're probably correct that I'm living in a world of assumptions that's almost completely off of what builds and itemization that are optimal currently.

However, I feel that's our main disagreement - I fundamentally don't want Garen to be a character who must stomp on his lane in order to be relevant. Granted, that's a lot of what competitive top-lane is at the highest tiers - which is a problem that has to be solved but that's a problem that a single champion cannot tackle.

The core thing right now with Garen on live is that he *absolutely* must stomp his lane in order to be relevant at all mid to late game. On lane, if you "tie" a lane versus Garen, Garen automatically loses. While this is intrinsic to Garen's feel on live - I don't think this is ultimately healthy for the champion overall.

Many of the things I've touched is to hit Garen's ability to simply stomp his lane out in order for total dominance - but I really want to make sure that Garen also doesn't need to stomp his lane out in order to be relevant.

We'll see as time goes and adjust as needed.
Out of curiosity, why do you guys hate early-game gambits like that?

LeBlanc, Pantheon, Garen...What's wrong with diverse power curves? They add depth to picks, from what I can see.


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Salganos

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
(Okay, the attack speed on the active still sucks for you. That's just Ghostblade's problem.)
That attack speed could still be quite useful between Judgements.

Now, if only I could remember to use active items even a fraction as often as I use summoner spells...


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Anlysia

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malurth View Post
Xyph, I'm afraid these changes leave me confused.

His E damage has gone down, and his tankiness from W without items has gone down. How does this incentivize him to build less defensive items if AD is less valuable to buy while armor/MR are now more valuable to buy?

Further, I'm a bit troubled at the lack of a one-point-wonder skill; both Q and W have heavy incentives to level now.
His E damage hasn't gone down, I'm just an idiot who can't do math.

Also, there's not much reason to level W. The 20% part is static and doesn't rank. Just the duration of how long you take reduced damage, and the cooldown. At one point you'll have more damage reduction and more Tenacity for 1/3 less time than before. At two points it's as long of duration and more damage reduction / Tenacity. W is a "two point wonder" skill now to be approximately as effective as it was at 5 ranks before.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

08-11-2012
10 of 16 Riot Posts

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Out of curiosity, why do you guys hate early-game gambits like that?

LeBlanc, Pantheon, Garen...What's wrong with diverse power curves? They add depth to picks, from what I can see.
In general, a champion whose role is to completely invalidate the opposing character pick no matter who they are and then vanish is interesting for picks - but pretty bad for actual gameplay.

This isn't to say that counter-picks are bad - but if your role is solely to crush a lane and then be irrelevant - I'm not sure that's good. I feel like succesfull counter-picking is more interesting than 'This character auto-wins lane X and then disappears.'


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Mirror

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Yes - this is absolutely true. A cursory glance at 1.1 total AD vs. 1.4 bonus AD would've been sufficient to tell you that.
Why so much condescension lately?


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Crusalis

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
If you feel that way, you're probably correct that I'm living in a world of assumptions that's almost completely off of what builds and itemization that are optimal currently.

However, I feel that's our main disagreement - I fundamentally don't want Garen to be a character who must stomp on his lane in order to be relevant. Granted, that's a lot of what competitive top-lane is at the highest tiers - which is a problem that has to be solved but that's a problem that a single champion cannot tackle.

The core thing right now with Garen on live is that he *absolutely* must stomp his lane in order to be relevant at all mid to late game. On lane, if you "tie" a lane versus Garen, Garen automatically loses. While this is intrinsic to Garen's feel on live - I don't think this is ultimately healthy for the champion overall. .
I can tell you this right now, he'll never be anything more than a top stomp no matter how much you want him to be.

He provides one thing: a single silence. He's clearly not a tank because there isn't a single thing that he does that makes him a threat (especially with these damage nerfs) or forces you to attack him.

Can you at least acknowledge that his ultimate is garbage compared to Riven and Darius, two champions with execute ultimates that do physical/true damage yet still provide more utility than Garen ever will?


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Loveshockk

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Basically what I seem to be reading is that Xyph is trying to design for the good of the game, while still keeping the victim... I mean recipient of the update viable.