Running Garen Numbers on PBE

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Zaphas

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
With that build, his damage would be increased with 'E' - because the skill scales much better off of your critical strike stat than it did before due to the 43% critical strike chance you have.

180 Bonus AD * 1.4 AD Ratio = 252 Bonus Damage.448.9
180 Bonus AD + 119 Base Damage * 1.1 AD Ratio = 328 Damage in the Ratio.

Essentially, Garen's E previously would add critical strike damage to the 252 - However, in the new one, it would add critical strike damage to the 328 in this case - which means the benefit that you're getting from critical strike is what's scaling the ability late game.
Ok, but the problem I'm having is that Garen now actually has to build items that have crit on them, but that do not have other AD carry stats like attack speed that are undesirable for him. Which leave the options at IE, Ghostblade, and nerfed up Atma's, which is an item very, very few bruisers get nowadays.

This leaves Garen in a quandry, because you've now made him so that he has to actually BUILD tanky items in order to survive, whereas before, you could actually rely on Courage passive to hold you over with 25 Armor/MR, so that you could buy that Ghostblade, that IE, and actually try to get him to a viable lategame.

Honestly, I think at this point I'd prefer unchanged Garen over this, having tried both out. Was looking forward to changes, but if this is what you're coming up with... keep him the same.


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Croanin

Senior Member

08-11-2012

I'm not sure how these changes are going to play out. But I am nervous. They way I build and play Garen he's is pretty potent late game. If I cant rush an IE I go HoG >(maybe a dorians) > Brutalizer > Phage > BF Sword and maybe Neg Cloak/Chain Mail if needed. As some people stated Garen's current Courage allows him to build glass cannon like no other from early to mid game. I finish Frozen Mallet and IE, so I'm doing some damage and can make the AP caster's life a living hell.

Lol its just Garen though he built too much offense aim him down, thats why you get GA to be ******. Now I'm a threat and you have to kill me twice. HoG> into Randuins and swap Brutalizer for Last Whisper.

I love the build but at the end of the day Garen's Judgement was the only thing you really needed to touched.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by UsoRemix View Post
how about having no mana limitations? -.- people always compare darius to garen w/o reminding themselves one has mana and the other doesn't. If you want Riot to give Garen as much damage as Darius has, Riot will slap on a resource bar for Garen. Its that simple.
I see. How many times have you observed Darius run out of mana?

At level 10, he has 575 mana, enough to cast his ultimate 5 times, discounting regen.

That will deal a minimum of 800 uncounterable damage overall if timed properly.

That ignores any passive stacks, any attack damage.

Against a single target, Darius will regularly deal the full 320 unreducible damage, counting his passive boost but no bonus AD.

Against a single target, Garen will deal 175 reducible Magic Damage plus 29% of his target's missing health.

For a target missing 1000 health, that will be a total of 465 Magic Damage.
For someone at 25 MR, this becomes 372 Magic Damage. At 50 MR, it becomes 232.5.

Garen's ultimate CD is 40 seconds longer than Darius at Rank 1.

Is this power difference really compensated for by costing 100 mana?

Is there some weakness in Darius's non-ultimate kit compared to Garen's non-ultimate kit justifying such a power difference?

What does Garen's new kit bring to Top Lane that other manaless champions do not have?


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Rythless

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
With that build, his damage would be increased with 'E' - because the skill scales much better off of your critical strike stat than it did before due to the 43% critical strike chance you have.

180 Bonus AD * 1.4 AD Ratio = 252 Bonus Damage.
180 Bonus AD + 119 Base Damage * 1.1 AD Ratio = 328 Damage in the Ratio.

Essentially, Garen's E previously would add critical strike damage to the 252 - However, in the new one, it would add critical strike damage to the 328 in this case - which means the benefit that you're getting from critical strike is what's scaling the ability late game (with that build specifically.)

Early game Brutalizer effectiveness is down - but since his Judgment has marginally greater base damage - the optimization here is to swap out flat AD for penetration. Granted, Chain Vest counters you pretty hard at that stage (but it would for both the flat AD build or the penetration build) but since Critical Strike is no longer a wasted stat due to the fact that Q now crits and E's effective multiplier from critical strikes are greatly magnified - the vast majority of ghostblade stats are relevant to you. (Okay, the attack speed on the active still sucks for you. That's just Ghostblade's problem.)[
It is glaringly apparent at this point that you have no idea about itemization vs. the majority of top lane champions or any clue how you should be building Garen after nerfing his early game advantage. Sorry man, I am usually on your side for a lot of the changes you make, but this time you are just so far off from understanding this champion that it hurts to even read your reasoning or shall we say "erroneous" solutions.


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Karn Bishop

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I know Garen can get kited - I completely acknowledge your point in this case.

I'm working on anti-kite melee itemization in general. We'll see the first results post Season 2 finals.



Unfortunately - yes. I'm not solving his core innate kite-ability issue at this time because being kited isn't a champion-specific problem. It's a problem with slows and the ubiquitousness of slows at the moment.

I apologize - I live and make changes in a world where I'm trying to fragment out systems level problems with champion level problems and trying to solve them at the correct level.
it's good to know you are working on kiting issues in general on melee champions but i think garen suffers from this particular problem a bit more then other melee ad carry's, also hope you enjoyed the song.


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CLG HotdogGG

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Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loveshockk View Post
Enjoying it so far. I was debating whether I should watch the series first BEFORE I watch it, but I wasn't sure how long it would be on On Demand, and for $1 no less. So I just thought why not.
Series first for sure.

Not sure you're even going to understand the movie without watching the series first, seeing as how the movie was basically made to wrap up the series.


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Noraver

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I apologize - I live and make changes in a world where I'm trying to fragment out systems level problems with champion level problems and trying to solve them at the correct level.
Xypherous, we all still love you, but we also know these changes are a little silly.
The community gets frustrated sometimes, but as much as we do, we still play and support this game.
Don't get upset about this thread, even though Garen players are being very passionate about his changes (buffs/nerfs).
In all fairness, we're only trying to help solve his problems, too.


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Jassu

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaphas View Post
This leaves Garen in a quandry, because you've now made him so that he has to actually BUILD tanky items in order to survive, whereas before, you could actually rely on Courage passive to hold you over with 25 Armor/MR, so that you could buy that Ghostblade, that IE, and actually try to get him to a viable lategame.
I think the biggest issue here is Courage 20% bonus armor and MR. As previously mentioned, to get the same amount of armor and MR from Courage post-change as on live, you need 125 each, which definitely necessitates building defenses to get use out of Courage. A thing to note, however, is that you start getting even more armor and MR once you breach 125, which further incentivizes building more defense. That means if you increase the % value of Courage on the PBE, it's going to help alleviate the issue of needing a lot of defensive items to get the same amount or more armor and MR from live Courage; however, you further exacerbate the issue of incentivizing building more defense because now Garen has a gigantic armor and MR steroid.

I feel as though Courage giving bonus armor and MR based off a percentage of your current stats is a bad idea, especially if it's affected by outside sources altering your armor and MR.


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Zaphas

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Oh, Zyph, since you said you're fixing Garen's base stats... did you guys do anything about him having the same armor @ 18 as friggin Sona? Especially given our free 25 Armor/MR got taken out back behind the woodshed and shot like Ol' Yeller, I think Garen could stand an increase on this.


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Croanin

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Stop comparing Darius to Garen...there similar but its a stupid comparison. Garen not only stomps him out in lane but is also less dependant on an initiator.

Riven is a far more solid comparison. The changes to that keep Garen's early game in check just seem to be a precaution because Riot knows that Riven and all her non resource using self is freakin broken.

Overall Garen will never be a viable competitive pick because unless Riot either nerfs Riven to a gimmicky status like Garen or gives her mana like every other champion with such a potent kit he will never be able to keep up with her. Garen's kit is just so **** linear while Riven is versatile as hell.