A Viable Way to Give the Right Elo

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XeroForeverxf

Senior Member

09-12-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarge View Post
Turret damage is important as turret kills are often stolen by minions. I've seen someone carry a team to victory just by pushing lanes and getting turrets down quicker than the enemy could react to defend it.
mhm Pushing > Killing, Kill all you want early game but if you lose one team fight end game it could be all over.


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Orthoclase

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Recruiter

09-12-2010

look, basically: you give rating as a reward for the action you want players to take. If you make it based on kills they'll try and get a lot of kills. Based on deaths, they'll be afraid to die. The only thing we want to encourage players to do is destroy the enemy nexus. Thus, that is the only thing which can give you elo rating.

It doesn't matter how many safeguards you put in, how complex your algorithm is. As soon as you tell people "more kills = higher elo" 95% of players will never play a heal/support champion again and your games will get a lot worse, not better.

EDIT: also no I just read the OP. lol.


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Sabnitron

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Senior Member

09-12-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tentakoo View Post
if you are ganking and succeeding, then you are indeed helping your team, if you avoid team fights and do not push on purpose just to rig the system then you would fail because winners still get more elo than losers overall so you would try to win at least
Realistically, that's not true. The current system gives you a bigger benefit for winning, but it doesn't deter people from playing selfishly, posting ridiculous k/d ratios, and complaining that their teammates are terrible.

The ELO rating system should have absolutely zero to do with k/d/a ratios, or at the very least, it should only be a small part of your rating. For the life of me I can't remember or find the other post, but a while ago someone came up with a pretty excellent system that most people were in agreement should be put onto the test realm for further study.

If I can remember correctly, it was roughly along the lines of this: (also, these are numbers I'm just making up of the top of my head to demonstrate the point)

You start with a base number of points for a win or a loss, depending on the other team's ELO, much like it is now. Assists count as kills for the purposes of this system, and assisting in a tower kill also gives you a tower kill. From that base:
+1 rating for every 5 kills
-2 rating every 5 deaths
+1 rating every 50 minion kills
+5 rating tower/inhib kill
+3 rating baron/dragon kill

Again, I don't remember exactly how it had been set up, but you get the drift. I think an important part is to include minion/building kills, and count assists as full on kills.


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Tentakoo

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Senior Member

09-12-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by XeroForeverxf View Post
mhm Pushing > Killing, Kill all you want early game but if you lose one team fight end game it could be all over.

Again You Did Not Read My Thread! I said I am not comparing Kills of One Team's Players against Kills of Another Team's Players DIRECTLY! Instead the ratios are compared among your own team's players. So even if you guys were under dogs but came back in one push it can still tell which one of you did better than the other teammate/s


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Kaeoz

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Senior Member

09-12-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tentakoo View Post
You are wrong about soraka, if a soraka does nothing but use her one healing spell and an ultimate during teamfights then that soraka has only half the idea of how her champion is played.
Yea look sometimes you're not going to be able to get close enough to spam Q.

And there may be more pressing targets to silence than the one your team is focusing. Maybe your team has a Kass. Why stack the silences? I guarantee you that Janna is almost guaranteed to hit the entire enemy team with her Tornado in team fights.. which is why she gets so many more assists.

You didn't address the true issue. Which is that KDR means nothing at all. You could go 0-10 and still win because you farmed up and carried late game as trynd, or the other team f'd up and did baron at a bad time and allowed you to win.

Should they not lose as much elo for not screwing up early game? Hell no, they f'd up in the game and it caused them to lose. They should be punished just as much as a team who feeds entire early game and loses because of that.


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Tentakoo

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Senior Member

09-12-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabnitron View Post
Realistically, that's not true. The current system gives you a bigger benefit for winning, but it doesn't deter people from playing selfishly, posting ridiculous k/d ratios, and complaining that their teammates are terrible.

The ELO rating system should have absolutely zero to do with k/d/a ratios, or at the very least, it should only be a small part of your rating. For the life of me I can't remember or find the other post, but a while ago someone came up with a pretty excellent system that most people were in agreement should be put onto the test realm for further study.

If I can remember correctly, it was roughly along the lines of this: (also, these are numbers I'm just making up of the top of my head to demonstrate the point)

You start with a base number of points for a win or a loss, depending on the other team's ELO, much like it is now. Assists count as kills for the purposes of this system, and assisting in a tower kill also gives you a tower kill. From that base:
+1 rating for every 5 kills
-2 rating every 5 deaths
+1 rating every 50 minion kills
+5 rating tower/inhib kill
+3 rating baron/dragon kill

Again, I don't remember exactly how it had been set up, but you get the drift. I think an important part is to include minion/building kills, and count assists as full on kills.
This system punishes tanks alot, as there is no rules to justify deaths like mine;
and punishes all losing players almost equally, as it does not compare players against his own teammates so good players are dragged down like bad ones in the losing team


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Tentakoo

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Senior Member

09-12-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaeoz View Post
Yea look sometimes you're not going to be able to get close enough to spam Q.

And there may be more pressing targets to silence than the one your team is focusing. Maybe your team has a Kass. Why stack the silences? I guarantee you that Janna is almost guaranteed to hit the entire enemy team with her Tornado in team fights.. which is why she gets so many more assists.

You didn't address the true issue. Which is that KDR means nothing at all. You could go 0-10 and still win because you farmed up and carried late game as trynd, or the other team f'd up and did baron at a bad time and allowed you to win.

Should they not lose as much elo for not screwing up early game? Hell no, they f'd up in the game and it caused them to lose. They should be punished just as much as a team who feeds entire early game and loses because of that.
The Point you missed from my Post is that the system is comparing players from the same team! If you screwed up as Trynd early, you know what, someone on your team is gonna have to cover your ass and take a heavier load until you farm yourself back into this game, and then if you dominate then you just set your record straight, but that guy who covered your ass deserves alot of credit too don't you think?

As for Soraka, doesn't your silence deal damage? if that target happen to die doesnt it fall into your assist? Starfalls on enemies do hurt, stand at a safe distance and spamming it even on 1 or 2 targets is still worth it, and if they die don't they fall into your assists?


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Vectros

Senior Member

09-12-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tentakoo View Post
This system punishes tanks alot, as there is no rules to justify deaths like mine;
and punishes all losing players almost equally, as it does not compare players against his own teammates so good players are dragged down like bad ones in the losing team
But he said assists count as kills in that system. So if you're tanking good, you probably look something like 2/5/19

By his system, you get -2 for deaths. You have 21 "kills" (19 assists which are counted as kills for his system), 1 point per 4. 4 points. This great tank got +2 from his K/D/A ratios. Not to mention such a system will actually grade you based on what matters most-pushing towers, and destroying buildings. I like it. Your system looks like it neglects pushing. There is no reward for taking down or damaging a tower...so by that logic, why push, when you could raise your ELO by kill stealing a lot? While killing enemies does help, it isn't what wins games. Pushing does. Any system for rating a play MUST involve how well the player managed to push.


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