Manamune is to Wit's End

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PineappleThis

Senior Member

09-10-2010

... As a nut cracker is to Walnuts.

Completely crushes Wit's End out of viability. I was thinking about this as I was trying to get to sleep last night and I'm like:

"Wit's End is only considered viable against those 'low mana' champs such as dpser's who need mana like Pantheon or tanks such as Blitz. But then I remember reading that people are now getting manamune instead of chalice or catalyst to solve their mana problems. And I'm like well WTF, now Wit's End will be COMPLETELY useless."

Any champ who gets Manamune with have an instant 600 mana upon completion of the tear alone. What's removing 42 mana gonna do against a dps type who will have plenty of mana to unload their spells on you, and kill you.

I don't usually like to ask Riot to do stuff and I hate those @whoever ****, but seriously Riot, Please look into buffing/changing Wit's End.

I don't care about the fact that it's useless against non-mana champs thats fine, don't buy it then, but the fact that it's gonna be useless against mana champs is unacceptable.

My suggestion is to give it a percentage along with a base number: Drains 35+2.75% of target's current mana. And maybe adjust the damage it deals if it could get too high.

On a champion with 600 mana this still only drains 51.5 mana. Which isn't that great, but it's better than what it is now. And the base number with low % keeps it from being considered op by getting it super early. As opposed to making it completely % based.

Edit: Updating this first post with all the suggestions made thus far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirtysprocket View Post
Very smart post, i hope some riot ppl read it.

You are right. Manamune actually put wit's end out of play completely. IMO Buff Wits End like this:

+40% Attack Speed (no change)
+45 Magic Resistance (from 30)

UNIQUE Passive: Physical Attacks remove up to 48 mana from the target and deal additional damage equal to the amount of mana removed. (from 42)

Basically, Merc treads and Wit's End on your dps champ versus an ap heavy team.
IMO that's how they should treat it.

(In your example, a mana heavy hero with 2000 mana will = 90 damage from wit's end....not good balance there)
Is 90 damage really that bad? I mean I look at it as draining 90 mana from 2000 and thats practically nothing. And Madreds deals 90 damage to champs with 2250 hp or more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pr0fessional View Post
Wit's end should be
40% IAS
30 MR
Unique:
Remove 2% of targets max mana per hit
Deals half the removed mana as bonus dmg

*Prolly bump the price up by 500 to balance it a bit*
Already disputed that 2% is too low, 5% was the new suggestion for this concept.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eSPee View Post
Just add 5% mana drain and quarter of that is dealt as MAGIC damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epicurite View Post
What about "Unique Active: Drain 25% of target's mana, deals half the mana drained in magic damage to target." I mean that is a pretty decent active and makes the item viable mid and late game. Assuming 2k mana, that is 500 drained and 250 magic damage. The damage is nice but most of the time you will be using it for the drain. This also continues to do what it needs which is fight AP heavy teams but gives support characters another option to help out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunflame View Post
Current Wit's End
+40% Attack Speed
+30 Magic Resistance
UNIQUE Passive: Physical Attacks remove up to 42 mana from the target and deal additional damage equal to the amount of mana removed.

My suggestion:
+40% Attack Speed
+30 Magic Resistance
UNIQUE Passive: Physical Attacks remove up to 42 mana from the target and deal additional Magic damage equal to the amount of mana removed.
UNIQUE Active: Triples the effect of it passive for 5 seconds, but the passive is removed until the active is ready again. 60 seconds cooldown.
The damage was considered to be too high for this suggestion, so we discussed making it deal damage equal to half of the mana drained.


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ShadowDark

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Senior Member

09-10-2010

I have mixed feelings here. On one hand, Wit's will now be nearly useless in draining a champion's mana pool. On the other hand, such a large amount of mana means that Wit's End effectively provides +42 pure* damage, +40% attack speed, and +30 magic resist. When you look at it that way, it's not quite as worthless as it might otherwise seem.

*I'm assuming the bonus damage is pure, since it states that the extra damage dealt is equal to the mana removed.


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Herald of Heroes

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Senior Member

09-10-2010

No offense, but I thought it was funny this was keeping you up last night.


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ScrewtapeGG

Senior Member

09-10-2010

Very smart post, i hope some riot ppl read it.

You are right. Manamune actually put wit's end out of play completely. IMO Buff Wits End like this:

+40% Attack Speed (no change)
+45 Magic Resistance (from 30)

UNIQUE Passive: Physical Attacks remove up to 48 mana from the target and deal additional damage equal to the amount of mana removed. (from 42)

Basically, Merc treads and Wit's End on your dps champ versus an ap heavy team.
IMO that's how they should treat it.

(In your example, a mana heavy hero with 2000 mana will = 90 damage from wit's end....not good balance there)


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Poochy

Senior Member

09-10-2010

ive been tring to suggest buffs for wit's end

the popular vote is for it to stack upon hits


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Lockethegreat

Senior Member

09-10-2010

I feel think shadow has the right idea here. I feel like you should be valuing the bonus dmg. even if its not pure, its straight bonus dmg, and it slightly inconveniences the enemy. Maybe lower the cost that is budgeted to the passive? But only a little bit. I feel like that would create a nice balance. I dunno how efficient it is, but unless its terribly inefficient, I dunno why people hate on it so much.


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Pr0fessional

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Senior Member

09-10-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirtysprocket View Post
Very smart post, i hope some riot ppl read it.

You are right. Manamune actually put wit's end out of play completely. IMO Buff Wits End like this:

+40% Attack Speed (no change)
+45 Magic Resistance (from 30)

UNIQUE Passive: Physical Attacks remove up to 48 mana from the target and deal additional damage equal to the amount of mana removed. (from 42)

Basically, Merc treads and Wit's End on your dps champ versus an ap heavy team.
IMO that's how they should treat it.

(In your example, a mana heavy hero with 2000 mana will = 90 damage from wit's end....not good balance there)
Wit's end should be
40% IAS
30 MR
Unique:
Remove 2% of targets max mana per hit
Deals half the removed mana as bonus dmg

*Prolly bump the price up by 500 to balance it a bit*


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ScrewtapeGG

Senior Member

09-10-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lockethegreat View Post
I dunno why people hate on it so much.
Because one, many of the best champs don't even use mana
Two, there are better + damage items out there for dps champs
and Three, there are better magic resist/ap counter items out there.

Most ppl can't find a good reason to choose wit's over other choices


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PineappleThis

Senior Member

09-10-2010

I've never been able to officially confirm whether Wit's End's damage is pure(true) damage or magic damage. That definitely changes things. But since True damage is so rare, my assumption is that it's in the form of magic damage.


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SwordOrShield

Senior Member

09-10-2010

Can someone confirm if WE is Pure Damage or Magic Damage? I think it's Magic.