Why are some champions harder to counter on Dominion than SR?

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DaRatmastah

Senior Member

08-09-2012

Hey guys, want to get a little discussion involved, maybe get Nome in here as well. Before we go any further, though, I want to outlaw the phrase "OP." It's too generic a phrase. What we're looking at here is champs with fewer, or more difficult, counters than the vast majority of champions, and what is different about the crystal scar that makes it so.

Analysis
So, let's start with King Kassadin. Kassadin is really just all about his R. The main problem is twofold: less mana gating on dominion, and scaling based on consecutive casts. The ability to move quickly around the map is also king. Tank Kass(the most lethal kind at high ELO) is only possible from the blue-buff level MP5 regen buff that the crystal scar aura grants.

Counter-increasing Ideas
Increase the mana costs on consecutive R casts even more.
Decrease base damage on R again, increase AP ratios to compensate.
Decrease the damage increase on consecutive R casts.
Dominion-specific item limiting MP5 regen of nearby enemies(I know Riot hates mana burn, but I figured this was a different take).


Thoughts? Comments? Want to analyze another champ? Let's try to keep things civil while we do this, I want to try to assist Riot with balancing as much as possible, and they like it more when we play nice =)


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Rebel Dragon

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Senior Member

08-09-2012

I think what's different about Crystal Scar is that there's the passive gold/xp gain, making a champ less dependent on farming.

And since it's been so long since I played normal SR games, I forget that champs are different over there...


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0shi

Senior Member

08-09-2012

Alot of champions are gated by a weaker than average laning phase, such as Kass needing melee to get last hits and needing his ult to kill anything, so when that's removed it becomes less about "win the lane win the game" and more about waiting until critical mass is achieved.
This doesn't apply to some of the higher-tier Dom champions such as Jax and Ezreal, but explains some of the others such as Poppy and Kassadin.
Another reason some champions see odd power curves is that they have been designed around the assumption of a certain income, which is significantly exceeded by Dominion.
The last reason that comes to mind is mana, where some champions are required to build mana-sustaining items or spend alot of time out of lane the Dominion aura can make up for a lot of that.


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Ikruti

Senior Member

08-09-2012

Another factor is that some champs are designed to be very powerful duelists and not so hot in large scale team fights. Due to the smaller skirmish nature of Dominion, this tilts the balance in their favor.


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deepbluereason

Senior Member

08-09-2012

There's a few things in play. The first is that there's a lot more dueling and small skirmishes in Dominion. In SR, after 20 minutes you'll hardly have any engagement that isn't a full 5v5 team fight. Not so in Dominion and many melee champs shine in situations where they can't be CC'd and burst down.

Also, no lane phase, no need to farm. Champs which scale well but have relatively weak lane phases and early game (Poppy, Vayne, Akali, Rammus, Dinger for example) aren't limited in that way in Dominion.

Hell, I've even had a bit of success with Karma on the CS.


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Hamm3rhand

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Senior Member

08-09-2012

(i'll come up with a better response to this later, but at them moment there is one thing i want to address) I don't think that the ability to move around the map quickly that is the issue, as there are plenty of champs who have gap closers or massive movespeed boosts. The issue is that he can do it multiple times very quickly which allows him to easily engage and disengage without much worry for death. This is different from SR in that the mana costs stack up too quickly so that you can't just hop skip and jump willy nilly around the map for free on SR. What I would suggest as a fix for this is to either do one of two things - increase the per cast cost of each jump so he runs out of mana quicker, or decrease the mana per level gain that he gets, which has the same effect. It then becomes a decision between making a choice of being able to cast your slows, silence and damage, and being able to jump back out of the fight. Now, this would need to be monitored, as you do get a fair amount of mana from the tank build, and we wouldn't want to cause SR kass to be nerfed into oblivion. But I think it would be fine if you built a mana item to be able to get another jump or two, rather than being able to build straight tank and still jump all you want.

another slight issue is that i think his jump is the longest of any champ yes? we could probably shorten it a bit so that it is more in line with other mages like leblanc and not hurt the champ, but it would make his escaping power a bit less.

one other option that i just thought of, if we do shorten his jump, is that to make him visible still after he jumps, for like 0.5 seconds. that way it can be a skill thing where if you are playing a champ with a gap closer and kass jumps away you can target him to follow him with your own and stick to him.


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Varshil

Senior Member

08-09-2012

Some champions, like Rammus, are improved by the fact that lots of people tend to pick champs weak to him (most notably AD carries and bruisers like Vayne and Jax) in larger ratios than you normally see in SR. Not to mention that powerball is beast for getting around the map.


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Maleficarum

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Senior Member

08-09-2012

Champions that are gold gated on SR are never gold gated on Dominion.

For that reason, I actually think Dominion is a better measure of balance than SR. I don't think "don't let X get fed or you lose" is a reasonable counterplay argument, because you never want to feed any champion.


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konfetarius

Senior Member

08-09-2012

Also, speed shrines combined with easier flanking routes make squishy AP/AD lives hell.


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Ikruti

Senior Member

08-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamm3rhand View Post
(i'll come up with a better response to this later, but at them moment there is one thing i want to address) I don't think that the ability to move around the map quickly that is the issue, as there are plenty of champs who have gap closers or massive movespeed boosts. The issue is that he can do it multiple times very quickly which allows him to easily engage and disengage without much worry for death. This is different from SR in that the mana costs stack up too quickly so that you can't just hop skip and jump willy nilly around the map for free on SR. What I would suggest as a fix for this is to either do one of two things - increase the per cast cost of each jump so he runs out of mana quicker, or decrease the mana per level gain that he gets, which has the same effect. It then becomes a decision between making a choice of being able to cast your slows, silence and damage, and being able to jump back out of the fight. Now, this would need to be monitored, as you do get a fair amount of mana from the tank build, and we wouldn't want to cause SR kass to be nerfed into oblivion. But I think it would be fine if you built a mana item to be able to get another jump or two, rather than being able to build straight tank and still jump all you want.

another slight issue is that i think his jump is the longest of any champ yes? we could probably shorten it a bit so that it is more in line with other mages like leblanc and not hurt the champ, but it would make his escaping power a bit less.

one other option that i just thought of, if we do shorten his jump, is that to make him visible still after he jumps, for like 0.5 seconds. that way it can be a skill thing where if you are playing a champ with a gap closer and kass jumps away you can target him to follow him with your own and stick to him.
I hate to quote they whole thing but I think it's relevant to do so.

I actually think your assessment isn't quite accurate. If you look at the scaling cost of his Riftwalk, to use it 7 times is 2800 mana. Even stacking mana, a Kassadin really won't be jumping around at 10 stacks. Heck, just the 7 jump alone is 800 mana. At maximum CDR, I believe the CD on Riftwalk is 3 seconds. To sustain high stack jumping you'd have to regen an obscene amount of mana, even with Athene's it's not going to happen.

I also think it's the movement due to low jump count rift walks that do contribute a lot to it. Those are actually sustainable and significantly boost his mobility.

I think the bigger issue is the walls of Dominion. Kassadin's jump is just long enough that it crosses the halfpoint on most walls. Due to the jumping algorithm, if your jump point is just past the halfway point, instead of failing the jump, it gives you the rest of it. This means he can jump basically every wall in Dominion.

This seems to support what I see Kassadin's do the most. Wait for a fight, get that massive initial jump damage in, do his ball/cone combo, then jump out. Now since this last jump probably left him almost drained, he'll wait till his stacks are gone and then do a low mana jump in and combo again. And that is very sustainable, low stack jump in, combo, jump out.