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Shen

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M3GaL0d0n

Senior Member

08-10-2012

Quote:
FaerellG:
Nice 1-5 win ratio with Shen. That combined with your sub 1200 Elo really qualifies you to give advice right?

Here are the reasons that Shen shouldn't be built pure tank:
1 disruption ability on a long cooldown. Limited by energy. After his taunt what does he do? Auto attack, vorpal blade. That's all he can do.
There is 0 reason to focus Shen if he doesn't build damage. Ki-strike alone is not enough to make you a credible threat. You need to stack AS in order to get it to proc frequently.


I understand that my lack of experience in high-skill ranked games isn't impressive, but lets try to stay open-minded shall we? I no longer main Shen since he's perma-banned, but when I do get him I'm either counterpicked or just don't play very well that game.

Quote:
FaerellG:
How do you have enough Energy to "perma slow" opponents? After a few Vorpals, you're done. Mallet applies with every melee swing granting exceptional sticking power and peeling power.

And don't tell me about Feint bringing Ki-strike up faster, I know about that. The problem is that Feint has a limited duration of 3 seconds. If you don't build attack speed, you only get 2 hits while feint is up, so it doesn't really matter how much extra shield you get. It expires. Building attack speed will let you sneak an extra hit in while the shield is up while having AP still leaves your potential at 2 hits.


Please don't make me explain this to you again, I said it once, come on. Jungle Shen once and you'll see he can maintain his energy for a semi-permanent cycle of Ki-strike>Feint>Vorpal Blade. Also, I never said attack speed on Shen was bad, I don't believe stacking it is a good idea, however. I would like to build attack speed runes on Shen, however I don't own a full set of them yet, so I choose not to. But one and maybe two attack speed items on him isn't a bad idea.

Quote:
FaerellG:
There are better Armor options such as Randuins and Atma's. They don't give you as much as Thornmail, but they provide other benefits along with their armor such as the AS/MS debuff and some bonus Damage.

The thing about Tanks at higher Elo is that you don't need THAT much armor. Building too much defense means that you'll be de-prioritized in a team fight. Build stuff that punishes people for focusing you and intelligent opponents just won't focus you.

And I'm sorry, if you're playing at the level where thornmail "completely shuts down enemy AD carry" then I think your advice is suspect. That's some triple digit Elo tactics there. Seriously, ask any of the 1500+ players here. Thornmail is a highly situational item and life-steal + some MR makes the reflected damage negligible.

You are better off building just about any other Armor item. Aegis should be prioritized before Thornmail because it actually gives armor to your


I never said the reflected damage wasn't negligible, I said 100 armor for 2000 gold makes a carries damage negligible. If the your team requires you to be able to stand up to a carry and/or tower the duration of a fight, this is your goto option for stacking armor. I never said it was core, I never said it was good, it's still situational, maybe I could have noted to always take Randuin's Omen first. But it's not like I published this on a build compilation site. You got me here, I'll spend 5 seconds editing my post to mention the priority of Randuin's over Thornmail.

Quote:
FaerellG:
Ok, here we agree. Shen is more of a peeler than an initiator. And I'm ok with building Hybrid-AP tank. That's more of a Support-shen. This is not what I have a problem with. What I have a problem with is building a pure tank shen. Pure tank Shen would deal **** for damage, and have weak shields


I understand this, Pure tank has always been a term with a lot of controversy surrounding it. I like to use it with a slightly evolved definition that is a tank with high utility and fight presence. Since we've gotten ourselves into this argument I would like to count my primary build on Shen as a Supportive Ap-Hybrid Tank, if it makes you feel better. However, I generally build Shen to deal most of his damage through Sunfire Cape and Abyssal Scepter, along with Ki-Strike. Which, while it does seem like a Pure-tank build, actually allows for a lot of damage to champions who ignore or don't keep there distance from Shen. While this isn't a high-damage build, I don't want it to be (Once again, I think there are better Champions for the job), Rylai's gives Shen single target peeling while Shadow Dash gives him multi-target peeling. Which is strong enough for Shen to function as an Auxiliary Initiator or peeler, along with the bonus HP on Stand United, he excels at protecting carries.

To address the second “Pure tank,” build, it still sports sunfire cape, and a large amount of health, which allows Shen to hit very hard with each Ki-Strike. While it's true “Pure tanks,” are generally bad things to have in high-elo, for the purposes of this guide I gave to the OP, I've always liked to know how to build Champions with the best fight sustain possible. Sometimes in normals or even just in low elo games its good to just be crazy annoying to the enemy team and just get focused that way. Sure it isn't high skill or creative, but if you know you're receiving multiple ults and summoner spells during fights, you're almost guaranteed to get focused everytime. It's mostly for casual play I'll admit. But it does have some potential even as the OP approaches higher ELO's.

Quote:
FaerellG:
Actually, Shen has higher damage potential than Jarvan if you build him as a bruiser. Martial Cadence only hits once per 6 seconds. With a single AS item, Shen's Ki-strike can go off 2-3 times in 6 seconds. Which gives you the energy to use your abilities to deal even more damage.

I should also note that Martial Cadence (10% of victim's HP) caps at 400 damage. In order to hit that Cap, your opponent needs a minimum of 4000 HP. Hitting a squishy with that damage will likely drop it to 200-300 damage.
Shen's Ki-strike also scales off of 10% HP...but off his own which is likely to be higher than whomever he's hitting. It also has a flat damage component that brings it up by 72 damage at level 18.

So not only would Ki-strike activate more frequently, it's also likely to deal more damage per hit. Explain to me how jarvan is a better damage dealer again? I mean, he's got an AS boost with his flag, but you can build AS/Tank items on Shen and he'll just deal even more damage (Both wit's end and ionic spark). You could build those items on Jarvan and it wouldn't scale nearly as well.


Lets go back to what I said about Jarvan in the first place...You said Martial Cadence hits for 200-300 damage late game, I said to EVERYONE in the fight, multiply 200-300 damage to three targets, which is what you're supposed to do when initiating as Jarvan, you will have damage in the 600-900 damage range, according to you, every 6 seconds. Sure that's inconsistent at best but so is saying Shen is going to be putting out 2-3 Ki-Strikes in 6 seconds every 6 seconds every fight, so we'll call it even. It's also okay for Jarvan to build more damage items than Shen do to Jarvan's kit allowing for more innate defense and mobility (Free Armor, Ult, Q & W is one of the best getaways in the game) which opens up better escapes and sustain if things go sour, so I will disagree with your scaling argument again simply because Jarvan's kit is a stronger bruiser layout. Lets not even talk about scaling builds on Shyvana or Olaf, their base damage from their kits are so high I don't know what to do about them, except play them. :3

Your move, But I feel as though this gentleman SlayerSR just casually waltzed in a gave us both a hard-crack with that build. If the OP could get back to us on what he thinks about Shen and how he's been building, or if he'd like anymore help, that would be cool. But that's all I really have to say outside of nitty-gritty tactics.


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FaerellG

Senior Member

08-10-2012

Quote:
M3GaL0d0n:
I understand that my lack of experience in high-skill ranked games isn't impressive, but lets try to stay open-minded shall we? I no longer main Shen since he's perma-banned, but when I do get him I'm either counterpicked or just don't play very well that game.

There are major flaws in your logic and build order and it's rooted in the fact that you play at a significantly lower level. I am telling you that your build doesn't function at a high level of play. I've tried building AP before a few times. It just doesn't work because your damage output is ****. You Shield, you Taunt, and then all you can do is auto attack for 8 seconds and the fight is over. You're still alive, but your entire team is dead and it's 4v1 because you couldn't get opponents to focus you.


Quote:
M3GaL0d0n:
Please don't make me explain this to you again, I said it once, come on. Jungle Shen once and you'll see he can maintain his energy for a semi-permanent cycle of Ki-strike>Feint>Vorpal Blade. Also, I never said attack speed on Shen was bad, I don't believe stacking it is a good idea, however. I would like to build attack speed runes on Shen, however I don't own a full set of them yet, so I choose not to. But one and maybe two attack speed items on him isn't a bad idea.

You need 1 AS item on Shen in order for him to ki-strike often enough to sustain. I've done the math and have logged hundreds of games as jungle shen in normals and several in ranked.
you run out of energy around the 6 second mark if you don't build AS. Even if you get lucky and still have some left, when 8 seconds comes up, you won't have energy for a second taunt, and that's critical.
You need 1 AS item, it should be Wit's End.


Quote:
M3GaL0d0n:
Lets go back to what I said about Jarvan in the first place...You said Martial Cadence hits for 200-300 damage late game, I said to EVERYONE in the fight, multiply 200-300 damage to three targets, which is what you're supposed to do when initiating as Jarvan, you will have damage in the 600-900 damage range, according to you, every 6 seconds. Sure that's inconsistent at best but so is saying Shen is going to be putting out 2-3 Ki-Strikes in 6 seconds every 6 seconds every fight, so we'll call it even. It's also okay for Jarvan to build more damage items than Shen do to Jarvan's kit allowing for more innate defense and mobility (Free Armor, Ult, Q & W is one of the best getaways in the game) which opens up better escapes and sustain if things go sour, so I will disagree with your scaling argument again simply because Jarvan's kit is a stronger bruiser layout. Lets not even talk about scaling builds on Shyvana or Olaf, their base damage from their kits are so high I don't know what to do about them, except play them. :3

Jarvan's needs to be able to melee everyone in order to get all that damage off in 6 seconds. Again, requires your opponents being dumb and standing all together.
It's like Udyr's Bear stun. You rarely ever stun all 5 opponents in 1 go because they position themselves apart naturally. You get 1 or 2 of them usually. 3 on a good engage.

Shen's ki strike is focused on a single target, and yes, you can score 2-3 in 6 seconds and repeatedly. With slow from Mallet and dash as your gap closer they can't escape.

Shyv and Olaf don't have a significant source of CC, so they fall into a very different jungler category.

Quote:
M3GaL0d0n:
Your move, But I feel as though this gentleman SlayerSR just casually waltzed in a gave us both a hard-crack with that build. If the OP could get back to us on what he thinks about Shen and how he's been building, or if he'd like anymore help, that would be cool. But that's all I really have to say outside of nitty-gritty tactics.

Nah, he builds pretty much what I suggest:
Mallet, Wit's End. Those are the core items you need to deal good damage on Shen. Everything else is just gravy.

I know Warmogs and Sunfire are good items on Shen. It's just a personal preference that I don't get them. I prefer Randuins and Atma's because it grants more utility and better single target damage.

But yeah, I don't see why you think bruiser Shen is "pants on head retarded".


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XCodes

Senior Member

08-10-2012

Quote:
FaerellG:
You need 1 AS item on Shen in order for him to ki-strike often enough to sustain. I've done the math and have logged hundreds of games as jungle shen in normals and several in ranked.
you run out of energy around the 6 second mark if you don't build AS. Even if you get lucky and still have some left, when 8 seconds comes up, you won't have energy for a second taunt, and that's critical.
You need 1 AS item, it should be Wit's End.

I think there's a miscommunication here, he didn't mention Taunt.

Also, using a second Taunt on cooldown isn't hard. You just need to hit at least one target with your first Taunt and avoid using either Q or W more than once each before it comes off cooldown. It's incredibly far from ideal, but it works. Using multiple Taunts while still going out 100% with your other skills really requires you to hit multiple Targets with each Taunt, and honestly I never see that going on indefinitely. AS will help a little, but hitting multiple targets with Taunt is really what's going to make or break you.


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FaerellG

Senior Member

08-10-2012

Quote:
XCodes:
I think there's a miscommunication here, he didn't mention Taunt.

Also, using a second Taunt on cooldown isn't hard. You just need to hit at least one target with your first Taunt and avoid using either Q or W more than once each before it comes off cooldown. It's incredibly far from ideal, but it works. Using multiple Taunts while still going out 100% with your other skills really requires you to hit multiple Targets with each Taunt, and honestly I never see that going on indefinitely. AS will help a little, but hitting multiple targets with Taunt is really what's going to make or break you.

That's exactly what I'm talking about.
he's talking about using Q to perma-slow people after he's taunted. You can't do that and still have enough energy for a second taunt because to have the energy for a second taunt you can't be spamming Q.
This is even if you have some AS and hit enough targets to juice back to 200 energy. Vorpals cost 60 and Feint is 25. You land 1 ki-strike regens 30. At best you're getting 3 vorpals off, and by then you don't have enough energy for a second taunt.
Wise opponents will back off when Shen's taunt is up again. You need slows to keep them in range, and if you're spamming Q for the slows you won't have energy to taunt.


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DaystarFire

Member

08-10-2012

I've been looking at some of these builds and am currently building:

Boots -> situational
Phage -> Frozen mallet
Recurve bow -> Wit's end
Giant's belt -> Warmogs armor
Chain vest -> Atma's impaler
???? - I honestly can't decide between randuin's omen, force of nature or sunfire cape.

I don't build him for any AP, because I find my energy pool would just be depleted in seconds, and the utility is what most of my skills are for anyway.

But, I'm also wondering: Is whit's end a good item late game? Or should I switch it out for something else, and if so, what?


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FaerellG

Senior Member

08-10-2012

Quote:
DaystarFire:
I've been looking at some of these builds and am currently building:

Boots -> situational
Phage -> Frozen mallet
Recurve bow -> Wit's end
Giant's belt -> Warmogs armor
Chain vest -> Atma's impaler
???? - I honestly can't decide between randuin's omen, force of nature or sunfire cape.

I don't build him for any AP, because I find my energy pool would just be depleted in seconds, and the utility is what most of my skills are for anyway.

But, I'm also wondering: Is whit's end a good item late game? Or should I switch it out for something else, and if so, what?

Solid build.
Last item should be situational. As a tank, you should be building to cater to the damage types you'll be receiving.
FoN and Randuins are both excellent items for their respective areas.
You should consider Aegis as well because the aura is just too good.

If defense isn't a concern, you could always pack Ionic Spark. More AS, a nice proc and more HP.

As for Wit's End. I usually keep it in End game. The MR is solid and 42 magic damage per hit is still extremely good. The only time I sell Wit's End is when you're at the super late game. I'll supplement my MR with Force of Nature, then Sell Wit's end and work on Madred's Bloodrazor for more damage output.

Sunfire is an ok option, but it's more of a mid-game item. Lategame, it becomes sort of lackluster once everyone has MR. It plain just doesn't tick fast enough.


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M3GaL0d0n

Senior Member

08-10-2012

Quote:
FaerellG:
There are major flaws in your logic and build order and it's rooted in the fact that you play at a significantly lower level. I am telling you that your build doesn't function at a high level of play. I've tried building AP before a few times. It just doesn't work because your damage output is ****. You Shield, you Taunt, and then all you can do is auto attack for 8 seconds and the fight is over. You're still alive, but your entire team is dead and it's 4v1 because you couldn't get opponents to focus you.


I feel like you keep keep forgetting that if you can use your taunt effectively, and your carry has at least a sense of kiting, you slow on your Q, and your ULTIMATE, are how you peel, you seem to have “Damage,” and “Peeling,” confused. Shen's goal was never to deal bruiser-class damage, its peeling and setting up kills, which he has sufficient CC to do. In a teamfight, Shen is more than capable of functioning as the main tank. Sure, his initiations are useless, but there are other offtanks with ultimates more than capable of supplementing this. Shen's job is to counter enemies who attempt to attack his carry, or team up with an allied bruiser and lock-up and secure kills while the brusier (who isn't Shen by the way) directs the action in a fight. If the enemy turns the tides on you, you can ult to your carry and then follow up with taunts and a quick slow on anyone who has the potential to chase your carry.

Quote:
FaerellG:
You need 1 AS item on Shen in order for him to ki-strike often enough to sustain. I've done the math and have logged hundreds of games as jungle shen in normals and several in ranked.
you run out of energy around the 6 second mark if you don't build AS. Even if you get lucky and still have some left, when 8 seconds comes up, you won't have energy for a second taunt, and that's critical.
You need 1 AS item, it should be Wit's End.


I don't know what you just missed to make you say this, but I'll say again, Ki-Strike>Feint>Vorpal Blade gives you enough energy to cycle indefinitely, as long as you can keep Feint from breaking before you get two hits off. If you want to taunt with this, you need 2 hit at least to enemies or you will bottom out for a second or two. I'll note that Supportive-Shens aren't as reliant on Perma-slowing unless his team is on the run. Attack speed on Shen is good, I said that once as well.


Quote:
FaerellG:
Jarvan's needs to be able to melee everyone in order to get all that damage off in 6 seconds. Again, requires your opponents being dumb and standing all together.
It's like Udyr's Bear stun. You rarely ever stun all 5 opponents in 1 go because they position themselves apart naturally. You get 1 or 2 of them usually. 3 on a good engage.


I never said 5, I said 3 (On a good engage? Wth? He's an initiator! Face first into enemy team =/= two hits with his passive), Jarvan has a kit that insures he can be where ever the heck he wants to be during a fight and has the mobility and massive AoE slow to insure he can deal as much damage to whoever he likes and hit multiple enemies. And again, I feel like you just denied what I just said, because lategame, even getting two hits at a time with Martial Cadence every 6 seconds will deal damage far greater than Ki-strike alone can ever hope to do, simply because you can't deal the damage in multiplicative increments.

Quote:
FaerellG:
Shen's ki strike is focused on a single target, and yes, you can score 2-3 in 6 seconds and repeatedly. With slow from Mallet and dash as your gap closer they can't escape.


You forget there's many more kiting options in this game that are better than Frozen Mallet, so enemies usually have no trouble shaking you if they really want to. Look at any other peelers, or the crowd-control/repositioning abilities in most carry kits. Frozen Mallet is good, it makes Shen more sticky than he usually is, It dosen't make him as sticky as someone like Olaf, or Nocturne. Look at the kit.

Quote:
FaerellG:
Shyv and Olaf don't have a significant source of CC, so they fall into a very different jungler category.


We're talking mobile, high-damage bruisers right? Olaf has only slightly less cc in his kit than Shen (But much more consistent), not counting Frozen mallet, and severely increased damage. Shyvana can carry Exhaust and still have better mobility than a ghost-wielding Shen, and better damage (Almost 0 Peeling, however). Lets add in Nocturne, who also has a very similar kit (though more offensively oriented), and Maokai, the other Hybrid AP-support tank this game has. Shen has better peeling than Maokai, but less damage than someone like Nocturne, Olaf or Shyvana.

Quote:
FaerellG:
Nah, he builds pretty much what I suggest:
Mallet, Wit's End. Those are the core items you need to deal good damage on Shen. Everything else is just gravy.

I know Warmogs and Sunfire are good items on Shen. It's just a personal preference that I don't get them. I prefer Randuins and Atma's because it grants more utility and better single target damage.



What I meant was, he helped out the OP more than either of us, it was a very in-depth build. For the record, I built off what you said and had mostly the same items when I gave my bruiser build.

Quote:
FaerellG:
But yeah, I don't see why you think bruiser Shen is "pants on head retarded".


I'll say this again as well, Shen's kit (Q,W,E,R) gives him some of the best peeling in the game (only falls short of Alistar and Janna, IMO), I'm not going to have the discussion about why building Utility on a champion that doesn’t have a kit with any strong direct damage abilities is a bad idea, it's been discussed before, it'll be discussed again, look it up. You say dealing damage with Shen is a good idea while you soil his late game peeling ability, let's bring Randuin's Omen into this again, Shen dosen't gain any peeling/utility by building damage. For the record, Frozen Mallet gives you less AD than what you can get with runes and masteries, and applies a strong slow that Shen only occasionally uses for multi-target peeling. Gee what AP-Hybrid item does that sound like? Rylai's Crystal Scepter! It's the same role, you don't build them both at the same time because they fill the same role, I never said Frozen Mallet was bad, I said Crystal Scepter is better. For What it's worth, most champions (I literally mean every single non-AP fighter) in the game can get away with building Frozen Mallet to some extent. This gives you the same crowd-control as if Shen built it and therefore keeps your carries just as safe (Most safe if you have a Frozen Mallet on your team and Crystal Scepter on Shen). Spammable AP abilities and all AoE AP abilities only apply a 15% slow from Crystal Scepter, but Vorpal blade can apply the 35% slow and still be spammable. This dosen't mean Frozen mallet, isn't good, if I'm concerned about being able to put out enough crowd-control to protect my carries, I go for Frozen Mallet, however, this generally isn't the case, considering Rylai's can slow just as well as Frozen Mallet on single targets.

Lets talk about high-elo play for a bit, Shen's a strong bruiser with only two direct damage abilities (with no AD scaling at all) for the sole reason that he has the only global teleport in the game, which allows him to excel at split pushing, or simple farming before entering fights. This alone is enough to warrant Shen playing as a purely as a bruiser at the cost of most of his peeling ability because Shen can sufficiently deal enough damage to kill carries and is therefore a decent threat. Aside from his powerful global teleport, Shen has a kit with only mediocre damage that is FAR outclassed damage wise by nearly anyone who has the “Fighter,” and “Melee,” tags on them, Shen is also occasionally outclassed in crowd-control by some other bruisers, which lowers his fight potential (Remember, as a BRUISER, not a PEELER). High-elo players put his split pushes to good use during mid/late game when having the upper hand in pushing is crucial before inhibitors start dying. So in reality, playing Shen as a bruiser is very viable because of his unique Ultimate, but still somewhat of a waste since he can still split-push as a Tanky-AP, while being exceptional at peeling. If he can get another player to take a high-damage bruiser, his functionality in fights is much higher. However, I'll say this one more time, I gave you a functional Shen build which allows him to deal as much damage as possible to enemy carries while still maintaining decent survivability, if you want to play Shen IV. But he's NOT going to gain any peeling ability by building attack speed, that's just the way his kit is built, he gets damage, and some energy.


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M3GaL0d0n

Senior Member

08-10-2012

Quote:
DaystarFire:
I've been looking at some of these builds and am currently building:

I don't build him for any AP, because I find my energy pool would just be depleted in seconds, and the utility is what most of my skills are for anyway.

But, I'm also wondering: Is whit's end a good item late game? Or should I switch it out for something else, and if so, what?


This is the goto Bruiser Shen build, it's the best damage dealing build while being tanky enough to live though fights. FaerellG said basically everything you need to hear, Ionian Spark isn't bad Damage dealer. More defense endgame is good so you can survive the middle of fights, if you feel your team has good damage.

On a side note, AP Shen is a separate build, it's mostly supportive with an emphasis on dealing lower damage while being much tougher, so if you want to build Tanky-AD, don't look in to AP items much, aside from the occasional Malady, as it is still a strong damage item that has good synergy with Ki-strike.

Witt's end is fine late game, unless you're struggling to survive before the enemy carry goes down, then build more armor, or Hybrid MR/Armor if they've gotten a Bloodrazer.

Hope your having fun with Shen, I'd encourage you to keep practicing and get better using him, because he's still really fun. GLHF


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FaerellG

Senior Member

08-10-2012

I feel like you have a different definition of Peeling than I do.

So, I guess I should explain this differently. I separate tanks into 2 categories right now:
Bruisers and Disruptors

Both have the shared goal of minimizing damage to the team.

Disruptors (e.g. Leona, Alistar) focus on dishing out CC and locking people down or displacing them such that they're easily killed.

Bruisers get into the opposing team's face to hurt them and be a credible damage threat in order to draw fire. Most bruisers also have some sort of disruption ability (Irelia, Udyr, Skarner, Shen), but also deal good damage while being tanky to encourage people to focus them, but survive the damage. This generates a "double threat" for the enemy team. Target the AD that's out of range slightly, or hit the bruiser who's in your face and also hitting pretty hard.

I tend to draw the line at the number, frequency, and power of their CC. Champions with 2 or more Hard CC are disruptors. Champions with only 1 Hard CC or less should be Bruisers.

Why? Because abilities have cooldowns, and you need to be contributing to the fight the entire time. Champions with multiple sources of hard CC can chain and time their abilities so that they're consistently harassing.
But champions with only 1 source of hard CC can only pull it off once per cooldown and need to be doing something else to contribute.

The difference here is that Leona can WEQR, then have her basic rotation up again very shortly. CC monster. She should be building CDR, tanky, and some support items.

Shen on the other hand has a single disruption ability. It's a great one don't get me wrong, but it's on a long cooldown. You have to do something else get him to contribute beyond building tank items. AP is certainly a good way to do it, but going Bruiser is perfectly viable as well. All of his abilities contribute to being a bruiser.

But back to Peeling. I define Peeling as the ability to get someone to stop attacking one of your allies. You're peeling them off of your teammate. Mallet does that wonderfully by it's slows. Dash when it's up. The problem with Rylais is that you will end up energy starving yourself using your Q. Building damage is also a definite way of get someone's attention too.

This game is more than just mechanics too. It's also about psychology.
When you're trying to chase down a carry, and a bruiser is perma-slowing you, that's one thing.
But when that bruiser is not just hitting you with perma-slows, but also hurting you pretty significantly, you're much more likely to break off pursuit.

People tend to freak out if they see their HP bar dropping rapidly, so yes, building damage does help peel.

Slow+Damage help peel. CC can be used to peel too, but using it for disruption is a better idea. Does that make more sense as to what I'm defining peeling as?

So when you tell me that building Shen as a bruiser costs him his peeling ability, I just don't see that. His peeling ability is just as strong, if not stronger as a bruiser. He's a much more credible threat with the volume of damage he dishes out and that's more likely to get people to turn around and hit you rather than the carry.

I don't see how building AP improves his peeling.
For built in CC, he has his Dash.
Building AP you get Rylais which gives him a source of slow
Building Bruiser you get Mallet which gives him a source of slow.

both builds have the option of Randuins as well for more slow.

same thing. I'm not seeing the "bruiser at the cost of most of his peeling ability".

also, he does gain peeling ability via attack speed. More AS means that he procs his Mallet more frequently. The slow is more consistent, and a flash is less likely to allow escape. Additionally, more AS means more Ki-strike procs, which means more energy, so you can use an extra Vorpal Blade or two to heal whomever is hitting the target while still having enough energy for the Dash when it comes off cooldown.
On the contrary, building AP doesn't really increase his peeling.

I think you're using a different definition of "peeling" than I am.


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M3GaL0d0n

Senior Member

08-10-2012

An interesting point to be sure. We'll set the record straight and say I count AP Shen as a Bruiser. Abyssal Scepter + Mpen Reds will flatten most mid game magic resistance on carries and allows Ki-strike and Sunfire cape to deal nearly true damage. This is a lot, so I think Shen can deal enough damage to deter most enemy carries and a good amount of bruisers, if he's ingored. While attack speed does give you an extra hit during Feint and therefore allows Ki-Strike to proc essentially every 4th hit, you won't starve yourself if you can land two hits on an enemy at a time with Feint up, and give yourself a second or two to regenerate energy if you can only score one hit with Shadow Dash (I believe Shadow Dash reapplies Crystal Scepter's full slow if you only strike one enemy, so it's not necessary to use Vorpal Blade immediately).

But I'll go ahead and say I respect bruiser Shen for what it is, a decent damage-dealing build with some utility, I say whether you deal damage through Abyssal/Sunfire or Witt's End, its not a big deal.
For Crystal Scepter Vs. Frozen Mallet, I like them both, both give extra health, damage, and a slow. But which one I buy depends, Mallet is better if I'm worried about mulitple targets. However, Mallet can do little to stop certain duelist/assasins such as Jax, who ignore on-hit effects, or champions who can just get past Shen quickly, for those champs Scepter tends to do better as its ranged which allows for quick grabs by Dashing then using Vorpal Blade for increased range into Randuin's Omen, for desperate saves. However I appreciate both builds, I've used them both, but my play style usually calls me toward AP, but both are good. The reason I don't like AD bruiser is simply because it has lackluster killing potential aside from very squishy carries and most other bruisers are better at it anyways. The reason I think AP is the best way to build Shen is because he scales well with AP, health and Mpen, which are naturally good combinations, along with AS. But not so well with attack damage, and since I build Sunfire, the 40 MagDmg/sec is better than Witt's End since I don't prioritize AS with my build. But I think if you need to deal more damage than worry about saving your carries from high burst-damage, I think AD/AS is a very strong way to build, its good on other champs, and it works well enough on Shen.... IV

That's all I have to say for now.