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Upcoming Zyra Changes

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Morello

Lead Designer

08-07-2012

Quote:
Aemys:
I feel like "we agreed on these changes" and "looked over these pretty extensively myself" are two things that don't justify the nerfs to me. Nor does CertainlyT's explanation, because it's so wishy-washy about exactly what Zyra is supposed to be able to do.

Why not try them out on PBE first? Why not work in some of the nerfs over time and see which ones are most effective? Why must we lump a bunch of very strong nerfs at once? That's how you bury champions to old Evelynn tier.

I think the point of having PBE is to have players see what feels right because Rioters are too far involved to see the big picture. Like how an artist can spend time focusing on minutiae of a painting, while anybody else that walks by can see where it doesn't look so great with a glance.

Zyra is the most excited I've been about a new champion since Ahri, and it's a shame to see her be released in a state that was known to be OP, just to be hit over the head with reckless nerfs. It shakes my trust in how Riot treats my favorite champions.


It tells you precisely what Zyra is doing to well, why we're hitting what we're hitting, and how it effects her. It even includes options for playstyles and ways to get what you like out of Zyra.

I just don't understand a cogent argument against them when she's blatently and clearly overpowered due to a series of combination of CC/Burst/Sustain/Safety and is massively dominant at MLG as a recent release (very rare). This is also a tournament patch, and this was necessary for that.


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SaveTheMaids

Senior Member

08-07-2012

Fantastic.

Maybe now, it will no longer be GG prematurely whenever I see a Wildfire Zyra on the enemy team now.


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Warkeiser

Senior Member

08-07-2012

Personally, I think that they should have nerfed Deadly Bloom instead Grasping Roots.

Whenever I'm fighting Zyra, the overwhelming major burst factor seems to come from her Deadly Bloom while Grasping Roots is used more for the snare than anything else. I mean, you can compare Deadly Bloom to Pillar of Flame in a sense that both are long range AoE nuke tools that work even better when used in conjunction with the champion's other abilities.

Quote:
Pillar of Flame - After a short delay, Brand blasts a target area, dealing 75 / 120 / 165 / 210 / 255 (+60% AP) magic damage to enemy units within the area. Units that are ablaze take an additional 25% damage.

Cost - 70 / 80 / 90 / 100 / 110 mana
Cooldown - 10 seconds
Range - 900
Diameter of AoE - 175
Delay before damage - ???

Quote:
Deadly Bloom - Thorns shoot from the ground, dealing 75 / 115 / 155 / 195 / 235 (+60% AP) magic damage to enemies within the area. If Deadly Bloom hits a seed, a Thorn Spitter grows. Thorn Spitter attacks with long range and deals 26 + (6 × level) + (20% AP) magic damage.

Cost - 75 / 80 / 85 / 90 / 95 mana
Cooldown: 7 / 6.5 / 6 / 5.5 / 5 seconds (Not including Zyra's passive CDR)
Range - 825
Diameter of AoE - ???
Delay before damage - ???


The diameter of Deadly Bloom appears to be similar to Pillar of Flame, although the delay appears to be even shorter (Maybe it's just the animation of Pillar of Flame making it seem slower). Perhaps CertainlyT can clear this up but at this time it appears as though Deadly Bloom is just superior when compared to other abilities of a similar type.

Given that Zyra can build no CDR items and bring Deadly Bloom down to a 4-second cooldown (3 seconds with blue buff), I don't think you can justify having such a high amount of damage on this ability.


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SirGregarious

Senior Member

08-07-2012

You guys disappoint me. Morello JUST said something about not wanting to over nerf a champion because people haven't properly learned to fight them with Darius. Which isn't even ****, if you learn to fight someone then you can always beat them with just about anyone. I'll analyze each change and tell you why I think it isn't called for.

*Base movement speed reduced to 300 (from 310)
This is the most ridiculous nerf. Movement speed is arguably one of the most powerful stats in the game, and taking ten out of it is very harsh. Long range mages are very position oriented, which is why the likes of Malzahar, Xerath, and Lux feel good to use with their high speed. It makes it so you don't feel like you're being pointlessly limited. Anivia feels like a pain to play because her range sort of puts her into the category of those mentioned above, but she's sluggishly slow in comparison to the likes of them. What are the weaknesses of these characters? They have little to no escape tools. Just like Zyra. They have little to no beefiness. Just like Zyra. A good gank completely wrecks them. Just like Zyra. This isn't what needs to be nerfed, if a nerf is indeed called for after people attempt to learn how to fight her instead of crying.

*When multiple plants attack the same target, additional plants deal 50% damage (from 75% damage)
This is where the nerfs need to happen, if they need to happen. These plants do pretty good chunks of damage, but they are killed off rather easily by certain champions. However, they're very troublesome to kill as other champions. I won't speak numbers on this one, but I believe this is a good place to hit.

*Grasping Roots (E) damage per level decreased to 60/95/130/165/200 (from 60/105/150/195/240)
This confuses me a bit. I'll compare it to the only two skills that are similar to it: Lux's Light Binding and Swain's Nevermove.
Light Binding is a 2 second and 1 second snare that does 60-260 damage. 1175 Range.
Nevermove is a 2 second AoE snare that does 80-288 damage. 1050 Range.
Grasping Roots is a .75-1.75 second AoE snare that does 60-240 damage. 1100 Range.
I'm not sure what makes you consider ranking up the skill as "generous" when it straight up does less than its two counterparts not matter what. Ranking up the skill in order to get the full effect makes sense. The fact that it has to be ranked up to get the full effect of the CC should be considered a weakness of the skill more than a strength. Lux and Swain can place one point into their CC and unload their whole rotation, whereas Zyra needs to put several before she can get close to the maximum effectiveness out of it. Generous isn't a word I would use to describe this skill.

*Stranglethorns damage reduced to 180/265/350 (from 200/300/400)
*Stranglethorns cast range reduced to 700 (from 800)
Really? The base damage on this is LOWER than almost every other AoE CC ultimate. The only AoE CC ultimate's with lower base damage belong to Sejuani, Sona, Orianna, and Leona. However, all of them except Orianna have higher scaling. As far as damage goes, her ultimate has VERY low damage when compared to Kennen, Morgana, Viktor and Cassiopeia. Even Hecarim, Nautilus and Malphite have more damaging AoE CC ultimates, and they aren't often complained about. I can understand the range nerfs. Until I look and see that this is the lowest range of all the projectile AoE CC ultimates aside from Viktor's, which has around double the base damage and triple the scaling. The true power in this ultimate comes from the buff it gives to Zyra's plants. However, the power of the plants is being nerfed as well as the power of this already weak ultimate. That's really driving the nail into the coffin.

In short: None of this is stuff we haven't seen before and it's nothing we can't play against. If you don't know how to fight a champion, use them and learn them. Over nerfing something doesn't help benefit anyone, it only shuts up whiners until the next thing they don't understand shows up.


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Bubbles of HK

Senior Member

08-07-2012

Quote:
Ztaxas:
Seriously, these changes were OVER THE BOARD, you may have all the numbers you can get , but I have the GAMEPLAY EXPERIENCE, I played her well, I know her well, I'VE COUNTERED HER.

Until then, you've on the blacklist of Reds.


Like he said, if you weren't dominating with zyra (aka you are bad and don't know how to use her fully), these changes wont affect you.


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Warkeiser

Senior Member

08-07-2012

Quote:
SirGregarious:
In short: None of this is stuff we haven't seen before and it's nothing we can't play against. If you don't know how to fight a champion, use them and learn them. Over nerfing something doesn't help benefit anyone, it only shuts up whiners until the next thing they don't understand shows up.


Sure, we've seen all this before. Just never all on the same person.

When a champion has more burst than Brand and more sustained damage than Karthus, something is wrong.


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Echorion

Senior Member

08-07-2012

I knew she was strong and expected nerfs but wow.....

I'm sure you guys know best, but careful not to go overboard.


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Redeemed In Fire

Senior Member

08-07-2012

Quote:
Wendek:
Yes she was OP. But now she's most likely dead. Remember last year's Orianna ? The nerfs were well-thought and argumented, too. She still ended up useless for something like ten months.
Byebye Zyra, you were fun to play.


Orianna took strong range nerfs to the knee, which (in absence of the QoL changes more recently) left her with too much clunkiness for the power she had.


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TimeZero

Senior Member

08-07-2012

inb4 she's garbage tier now

crybabies have won again...

EDIT: crybabies downvoted me to oblivion LOL!!


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Valenten

Senior Member

08-07-2012

Quote:
Morello:
It tells you precisely what Zyra is doing to well, why we're hitting what we're hitting, and how it effects her. It even includes options for playstyles and ways to get what you like out of Zyra.

I just don't understand a cogent argument against them when she's blatently and clearly overpowered due to a series of combination of CC/Burst/Sustain/Safety and is massively dominant at MLG as a recent release (very rare). This is also a tournament patch, and this was necessary for that.


She dosent have natural sustain though :/ she has to buy her sustain just like any other mage. and why lower the Ult dmg? i mean the ults dmg wasnt the biggest issue IMO if anything the enraged plants where a bigger source of dmg than the ult was/is. and she only has the knock up for hard CC the snare ppl can still attack and all that. her burst was good but i mean thats like saying karthus' burst is to much and he has all the same things he has good CC burst safty and sustain with proper items. i realize they both serve different purposes as a mage but wasnt the point of Zyra to be able to lock the opponents down and let the plants do most of the dmg? cause thats what most of her dmg is based around..... i mean sure the q offers good burst but most of her dmg comes from her plants. so the plant nerf was fair but the others are a bit much imo. now you are forcing Zyras to start with boots 3 pots instead of other possibilities since she will have one of the lowest movement speeds starting out. i just see the dmg nerfs to be a bit much. hopefully they dont kill her one suggestion i have is to shorten the delay on the knockup if these nerfs do play out to be to much because 2 seconds gives alot of time to get out. i just worry that the first mage yall came out with in a while is going to be put down hard with these nerfs.