Upcoming Zyra Changes

First Riot Post
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Zotok

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Junior Member

08-11-2012

I would consider "nerfs" necessary not sure about the density of them. Way to much control, damage and spam ability. Seems to be the riot way of releasing high offense champs lately, which means there kit's and damage potential has to be more closely monitored. All good for skilled players though


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puika

Junior Member

08-11-2012

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Fadar

Junior Member

08-11-2012

Zyra definately doesnt feel as good when I play her. But I think the damage output is still okay.
So when it comes to these nerfs I am totally with you. You shill have enough damage to win as soon as you have zonyas. So for me she is still fun to play to a point.

Still I don't understand her nerf on the movement speed.
Being unable to spam my abilities and use my seeds to theyre formal way (now constantly having to keep one for sticky situations) I really need my movementspeed to run.. She is super squishy and she always was so taking her movement really hurts most for me. It really does make a difference.
So if she could at least get her formal speed back that would be much appreciated.

I also have to say, I am really sad to see that all new champions are OP and have to be nerfed a week or two later. Isn't that what the PBE is for? What do you have testing grounds for when a champion gets changed so fast after being released again?
I understand PBE is probably another amount of player but still..then test a champion longer before releasing one after another in a matter of weeks.

I really hope its not because you guys just want to sell these new champions and skins for them to make a good amount of money out of this. If this is really only for marketing reasons it's really sad.

You guys did the hotfix for zyra to be played at tournaments. I am really interested to see if she will be played..her passive still delays.


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Micklesdoom

Junior Member

08-11-2012

i am just waiting for another irliea nerf


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Morjtikux

Senior Member

08-11-2012

I am ok with most of the changes, my only beef is the E nerf. Support builds are going to feel the burn with this one. I can agree that her mid-lane harrass was too strong, however she needs something more reliable than plants that only last 1-2 secs against smart players.


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Jinxly

Junior Member

08-11-2012

No this nerf is way to hard you pretty much just turned zyra into the evelynn of champions when she was mega nerfed, thanks a lot riot you made my $10 I used on zyra go to waste she is 100% terrible now and everybody will dominate over here...


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DARKxALLxSEER

Junior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aemys View Post
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2447727

I posted a thread on general discussion summing up my feelings about the Zyra nerfs. I HIGHLY encourage you all to read it and post there with your thoughts and opinions, but I'll copy and paste it here in case the Reds aren't paying attention to GD.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________


Hello. I'm Aemys, an average 1400+ Elo player that you might have seen around the forums lately because of all the Zyra talks. I'm by no means a professional player, but I like to think that I have good common sense being a Libra and Myers-Briggs ENTJ-type. Just as well, I'm a 'fixer' versus being a 'processor,' so I like to cut the bull-doo-doo and get straight to the problem and possible solutions.

That's what you'll see me do here with the recent Zyra nerf onslaught, in the most simple fashion possible. I've been playing her since PBE (and some of the points I'm going to make are points I made in posts on PBE, for example, I was highly against her getting CDR since then, but we'll get to that later), so I kind of like to pretend that I'm familiar with her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello
It tells you precisely what Zyra is doing to well, why we're hitting what we're hitting, and how it effects her. It even includes options for playstyles and ways to get what you like out of Zyra.

I just don't understand a cogent argument against them when she's blatently and clearly overpowered due to a series of combination of CC/Burst/Sustain/Safety and is massively dominant at MLG as a recent release (very rare). This is also a tournament patch, and this was necessary for that.
Here's my counter cogent argument, Morello. Also, blatantly* because I'm a spelling Nazi like that.

Also, get prepared for a wall of text.

_____

Why was Zyra overpowered?

According to the nerf post, we have these reasons:
1. Zoning potential (because of AoE)
2. Safety in lane
3. Burst damage

And from CertainlyT's post (Red Post 6 on that thread) we get:
4. Too easy to farm with

How did these elements get nerfed?

-For zoning potential/safety in lane, she lost cast range on her ult and movespeed.
-For cast range on ult, they nerfed it.
-For burst damage, they nerfed the base damages on her E (Grasping Roots), R (Stranglethorns), and additional plants attacking the same target deal 50% (down from 75%)

Why I think these nerfs missed the mark:

Let's look at her safety in lane/zoning potential first, from a Zyra player's perspective.

Well, she has an 825 range on her Q and an 1100 range on her E. She's given free temporary wards, has both a slow, AoE snare, and potential AoE knockup (yes, I have used the knockup on her ult to escape ganks in extreme situations), all of which can hinder a potential enemy gank. Not to mention, she doesn't have to worry about positioning at all because her abilities are all AoE skillshots unaffected by creep block (like Morgana or Lux).

What does this mean? It means that Zyra players can sit far behind her caster minions (about parallel with the bush walls, an incredibly safe position considering that most mages have to be in front of caster minions in order to ), while still having the potential to harass her opponent even from this safe distance. She can also use her W as a free bush ward, and if an enemy does gank, she has plenty of CC to keep them away (similar to Lux's general safety in mid because of CC, except with free potential warding).

Riot's solution: nerf her ult cast range and movespeed.

The movespeed nerf doesn't fix the problem. Zyra players will just pick up MS Quints (as are useful on champions like Orianna to which she was compared). Did you know that it's actually easier to land skillshots when you're steadied by a slower movespeed? If you're running and trying to land a skillshot at the oncoming gank, your own movement displacement affects how accurate you'll be at landing it. There's a reason that Biathlon athletes stay still when shooting at the Olympics.

The ult cast range nerf also actually HELPS her safety in lane, because it means that if she's being ganked with the jungler coming at her, casting it closer to her in a defensive manner makes them more likely to be affected by the knockup. It doesn't affect her zoning that much either, because who zones with their ult? If you're using your ult, you're likely going in for the kill anyway. If you barely lose that trade, you've got your passive. This is one of those nerfs that I think completely misses the problem.

My solution(s):

Nerf the range on her E (down from 1100 to 925-1025). There's some leniency here. The power trade-off of having an AoE snare is that it should be more dangerous to use. This would mean that Zyra players wanting to be aggressive have to position themselves in front of caster minions in lane, and therefore exposing themselves to ganks more. At 925, it's just a little bit longer than the range on her Q, meaning if she lands it she can walk up just a tad to land the rest of her combo, and that now she is quite predictable when she's going to move in for a combo. Being predictable is an exploitable weakness. This means she'll no longer have the safety of sitting so far back in lane while still zoning you at the drop of a hat. You could also potentially nerf the range on her Q a tiny bit, maybe down to 800 if anything.

tl;dr: Movespeed and ult cast range nerfs don't solve the safety in lane/zoning potential of Zyra. The ult cast range nerf can stay, because the real solution is to nerf where Zyra stands in lane while still being able to trade harass/trade. Give back the movespeed, take away range on E.

_____

On easy farming:

Well yeah, you gave her near-free plants that can last hit for her.

_____

Now let's look at her damage/burst "problem":

*When multiple plants attack the same target, additional plants deal 50% damage (from 75% damage)
*Grasping Roots (E) damage per level decreased to 60/95/130/165/200 (from 60/105/150/195/240)
*Stranglethorns damage reduced to 180/265/350 (from 200/300/400)

Let's get something straight right from the start. ZYRA IS A COMBO MAGE. No matter how you look at it, Zyra always has been and always will be a combo mage. This is how she was first introduced to us in teaser Red posts, and this is how she's discussed in her spotlight. Other combo mages: Brand, Anivia, Lux, LeBlanc.

What do combo mages have in common? HIGH COOLDOWNS AND BURST.

What does Zyra have? LOW COOLDOWNS AND BURST.

See the problem here? I posted a thread on PBE (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...ighlight=aemys) immediately after she gained the 20% CDR.

While that post is obviously out of date and saw Zyra in a decently different state than what she saw on release, it's clear that I saw CDR as a problem on her from the beginning.

But Aemys, what does 20% CDR have to do with her damage?

CDR translates to more damage over time. This is where you're seeing CertainlyT talk about sustained dps on Zyra in his nerf post. As someone that has mained Cassiopeia since first starting LoL, I'll use her as the prime example of a sustained DPS mage in my discussion later.

20% CDR on Zyra means that, with blue buff (not even needing the 4% CDR mastery), a Zyra with rank 5 of W has maxed out the CDR stat at the cap of 40%. While this isn't necessarily a reason to max W first or second, it means that a Zyra player that makes it to level 18 and is fed blue buff by her jungler will never even once have to buy CDR items.

What does this mean?

It means that a COMBO MAGE with BURST effectively gets free max CDR that leaves her with cooldowns even LESS than that of a Cassiopeia. This gave her the best of both worlds: you could build full damage AP items (Sorcerer Boots/RoA/Rylai's/Deathcap/Void Staff/Zhonya's) and be able to spam your combo multiple times within a 20-30 second time frame (the duration of most teamfights), as if you were a Cassiopeia with the burst potential of an Anivia.

This made her teamfight potential SKYROCKET to BLATANTLY* OVERPOWERED.

Now, let's compare her to Cassiopeia with the nerfs:

Zyra's Q was already weaker than Cassiopeia's Q by .1 AP ratio. They have the same base damages per level.

Zyra's Q used with one or two Ws (therefore making Thorn Spitters that attack your target) is pretty in-line with the damage of a Cassiopeia that spams Q > E > E. The difference here is that Zyra's Q is a tad weaker, and the damage from her plants is avoidable by walking out of range or killing them (which is highly likely if used in a teamfight scenario- it's been pointed out countless times that they have a habit of dying quickly in the AoE of teamfights).

Zyra's ult now has significantly weaker base damages than Cassiopeia (180/265/350 + .7 AP) compared to Cassiopeia's (200/325/400 + .6 AP).

Sure, she has .1 more AP scaling, but here's the main difference:

The CC effect on Zyra's ultimate is avoidable. Flash, the most common summoner spell used, is more than enough to get you out of range of the knockup if Zyra lands her ult on you. If Cassiopeia lands her ult on you, it is GUARANTEED to either stun for 2 seconds or slow by 60%. The difference here being avoidable CC, and Cassiopeia's ult AoE being significantly smaller.

It's also worth pointing out that Cassiopeia is much better at single-target focus. As in, she'll ult the entire enemy team, throw out Qs as much as she can, but will ultimately attempt to spam E on the same champion, usually the biggest threat or carry if within range. Zyra's plants aren't guaranteed to focus the right target in a teamfight.

Riot has taken a COMBO CHAMP and brought her damages to less than that of a standard sustained DPS mage.

Here's my solution: GET RID OF THE CDR.

_____

But Aemys, why take away her 20% CDR entirely?

For several reasons:

1. She's a combo champ with all skillshots. As I mentioned earlier, the similarity between combo champs is their BURST. Zyra should have high burst potential if she lands her combo smoothly and effectively.

2. Higher cooldowns are a weakness that can be exploited, and also makes Zyra players decide how to deal with them. I've seen plenty of tournament matches where there's an Anivia/Orianna on a team where the enemy makes a specific point to deny her blue buff, because she needs it for the CDR and mana. Zyra, ANOTHER COMBO MAGE, could possibly have the same weakness.

Just as well, it brings up a decision that needs to be made by Zyra players. Do you deal with higher cooldowns in favor of burst with your core combo (it's not unheard of for a combo champ to 100 to 0 you with one combo- see Leblanc, Annie, Brand, the latter two being able to decimate entire teams with AoE combos), or do you build CDR for the tradeoff of spammability/utility (and therefore relying on items like DFG to do your damage for you).

You know that awkward moment when you missed all your skillshots as Lux, you're getting ganked, and you have such high cooldowns that you can't do anything but auto attack helplessly as you die? Guess what. Zyra used to have that before the CDR. It's an exploitable weakness.

tl;dr: Riot nerfed the wrong stat. Burst is fine on a combo champ and is not something we haven't seen- it's when you give bursty champs the ability to spam that combo that's the problem. Combo champs should have HIGH COOLDOWNS, but REWARDING BURST for landing their combo properly. Zyra's natural CDR gave her the best of both worlds, one of which she doesn't belong in.

____

I hope you took the time to read this before downvoting or calling me a crybaby noob. It's simply my opinion that Riot rushed out a series of nerfs on a champion they KNEW was being released as overpowered from PBE to Live.

I feel like it's a lesson learned for Riot: don't release champions to live that are CONFIRMED and KNOWN to be blatantly overpowered if you don't have a plan on how to balance them effectively.
im with you


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SirHeroTheBrave

Senior Member

08-11-2012

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SirHeroTheBrave

Senior Member

08-11-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morjtikux View Post
I am ok with most of the changes, my only beef is the E nerf. Support builds are going to feel the burn with this one. I can agree that her mid-lane harrass was too strong, however she needs something more reliable than plants that only last 1-2 secs against smart players.
and she is also a snail...like bad. she never had a escape but now she is even slower with shorter range, makes sence to me. she feels like a support now :c


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A GumyBear

Junior Member

08-11-2012

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