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Dodge Penalty

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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

08-06-2012

1. I'll address the long post in detail later on.

2. Draft took over 20 minutes at the ~1450 Elo level about 3 months back. As much as people complain on NA about draft timer, it's way worse for EUW, and had been getting worse. EUN is the smallest community of LoL by several orders of magnitude.

I spend 2-3 minutes in queue when I solo queue at peak hours. But we have somewhat less Dominion players, and the "ceiling" of Elo is lower, so 2k Elo for eu-w is not exactly the same as 2k for NA, from my limited experience. I'd ask Nekrogen since he plays on both servers at a high Elo.

3. It's like you hadn't read my point. It's not about having high Elo, it's just easier to notice there. The non-dodgers are the true majority in this game, and the dodgers are the minority who put themselves ahead.
Even if you only lose ~5 seconds in queue time for a dodger, you still lose over a minute in champ select, you get annoyed by repeat dodgers, and in draft when someone dodges after everyone finishes picking champions, you've just wasted 5 minutes for every other player.

The dodger is 1/10 in his game, the majority are the 90% of the people in the game who did not dodge.

Dodgers are the minority, regardless of Elo.
Dodgers make people tire of the game, and make new players go away. This, BTW, is why co-op vs AI is where it's even most important to have a dodge penalty. So these players will actually transform into permanent players.


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MyDeadGrandma

Senior Member

08-06-2012

You're assuming all of the non-dodgers don't appreciate the dodging. The opportunity to dodge a bullet that is 20 minutes wasted time in a bad game is one many are or should be grateful for. Don't presume to speak for 90% of the population.

If they returned an inconvenient enough penalty, I probably wouldn't dodge, depending on the downtime, but I'd be **** well grateful to those who do.


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FDru

Senior Member

08-06-2012

Anyone else get sick of seeing these choads argue for why their selfish desires should be catered to?

This should not even be a topic for discussion. Queue dodge penalties are a simple necessity. Please quit the game when they turn them back on, because nobody is going to give a ****.


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MyDeadGrandma

Senior Member

08-06-2012

Yes. The few with absurdly long queue times are selfish for wanting to be catered to at everyone else's expense.


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Kierloway

Senior Member

08-06-2012

It's much easier to deal with people dodging in a quick queue then it is to deal with a bad team for twenty minutes. And by bad team I mean deal with people who don't care if they win or lose, they only care that they can play whatever character they want, to the detriment of the team. That's not the way to play the game and having the option to choose that part at least is a good thing. A penalty of perhaps two minutes I would be ok with, but anything beyond that is not alright with me. I'd rather not only be able to queue up every 10 or 15 minutes. I usually wait a couple of minutes after I dodge so I don't encounter the same people again. I let them have their picks, that's fine...I juts don't want to have anything to do with the game involving them.

Putting penalties on us for exercising caution would be bad for the game.


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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

08-06-2012

Quote:
bierfaust:
I'm not even going to bother to respond to most of that dribble. You're pretty much making a big deal about nothing.


Drivel, not dribble.
I don't think I'm wrong about anything, naturally, but most of it is opinion anyway. And thank you for taking the time to reply. So I'll take the time to reply in kind.

Quote:
bierfaust:
A few things Ill correct you on though.

There would hardly be thousands of people playing DOM at any given time. Even 1000 would be a huge stretch. My queue times vary between 30 secs on weekends to 4 mins during the week (when queued with friends). Mostly the queue time is about 2 mins or so. And I quite frequently see at least 2 people per game that I see at least 1/3 games, so the queue pools are extremely tiny. (Im only about 1700 elo I think)


Irrelevant how many people are playing simultaneously. Those who dodge waste the time of people they play with at the time. There are thousands of people playing Dominion in general. Regardless, it's about percentages.

Also, the small pool of players makes it more likely you'll meet the same people post-dodge.


Quote:
bierfaust:
Trying to say that someone that dodges is wasting other peoples time collectively is just stupid. Yes everyone gets put back in the queue, but more often than not only the dodgers spot gets filled, so they enter back into the queue with 9/10 players. Unless you play at like 3am it's not gonna take that long to fill. (And considering how messed up the elo rubber-banding is they just grab anyone that is free)


No, it doesn't get anyone who's free. And I'm glad considering your first sentence, which I bolded, that you're not in charge of public decision-making.

Have you read Good Omens? That you dole out diffused unhappiness to a collective does add up to one concentrated dosage of negativity, assuming that we can agree it does engender negative feelings in others - your dodging, that is.

Also, you keep throwing "Stupid" around like that. It sure makes for powerful arguments.

Quote:
bierfaust:
There already is an inherent dodge penalty, it's the time it takes someone to relog, invite their friends and then re-queue and hope they don't get more retarded choices. Usually when I dodge I wait for 30 secs or if someone else dodges, I leave queue and wait 30 secs. And most times the game with the 9/10 other people is well on its way by the time I re-queue.


When I dodged and dodge penalty was in effect, I'd still wait for more than 4 minutes before being able to re-queue. This is time, a lot more than the roughly minute it takes to get everything sorted. This is the price one pays.

You can argue then that I want to increase the inherent dodge penalty. Now, your argument can no longer be that there can be no penalty, because by your own admittance there is, it's now a discussion on how long it should be. I argue it should be long enough to deter wanton dodging.

Quote:
bierfaust:
Co-Op vs AI is irrelevant, and quite frankly anyone that plays it should be banned from playing with other players until they go through probation matches to determine whether they are even capable of playing a video game in general.


You're really making a case for being chosen as the charming poster of the day. Perhaps they should put anyone who's rude and boorish through the ringer, have them earn posting privileges to public fora and chats?

They are gamers who play the game, and your fun cannot come over theirs. And you didn't address my point at all through this deflection.

Quote:
bierfaust:
No draft was killed because people don't like Champions they enjoy playing be banned. So they won't play banning draft at all. And most people hate draft mode anyway because it takes forever in a day to get into the game even if nobody dodges. (And DOM is supposed to be quicker than SR) There is a difference between people just not wanting to play with Champions being banned, and people dodging because they don't like the bans that were picked. Quite hard to determine but a very real situation.


Even if we agree that you can't tell why someone dodged, I still hold that dodging had a critical effect on the demise of draft. As you said, very truthfully, draft takes quite some time to set up. Each dodge multiplies this, and this quickly gets to the point where the draft stage takes more than the game phase itself. No dodging helps keep players willing to play dodge.

But you know what? This can be tested, once dodge penalty is returned, though some who've abandoned draft will never return, or do so slowly. So it'll never truly be the same.

Quote:
bierfaust:
Pretty much all I see here is butthurt and someone that doesn't like people to have a choice in what team they have. If I don't like a team set up, why the hell should I have to waste 20-30 mins and probably end up losing? (as is usually the case when I don't dodge a stupid lineup. Because the nature of the game mode is that the team with better synergy and also independent performance wins)

Basically you want to hurt those of us that actually care about our DOM games and want to have fun through a tight competitive and close game. I don't like face rolling just as badly as I hate being on the receiving end. Most people would agree. And for those that do have huge queue times due to ELO, I'm sorry, but that's Riots fault for not promoting the game mode and balancing it. But I'm not about to put up with having 1/5 good games just to keep a very small minority happy.


Here I have a lot to say, a whole lot.

1. You're being exceedingly selfish. You'll note your argument keep coming back to your entitlement to fun, to why should you waste your time, etc. Contrast this with my arguments, which argue for the return of dodge penalty in large part due to the time and annoyance costs to the other 9 people in your game lobby.
Stop being so selfish.

2. Choice? I'm empowering you to make a choice. Don't mistake me here. I dodge. I actually mostly began dodging after hitting 1,900 Elo, due to recognizing certain players as incorrigible trolls. But I'm willing to pay the cost.

If you do something that comes for free, you're not making a meaningful choice. A meaningful choice has you giving something for something else. What you have is an automatic decision due to the non-existent cost.
I'm advocating for decisions, meaningful ones.

3. You say you'd rather neither stomp nor get stomped, which is nice. But you dodge if you think you're going to get stomped. We'll assume every player has 50% to end on either team, so you are increasing the percentage of you stomping.
Furthermore, I somehow doubt, should you play draft, that you'll dodge if the enemy team's setup looks as if it's going to get them stomped.

So it's a theoretical stance, an ideological view, with nothing backing it up.

Also, to paraphrase, it's "Better to wrong than be wronged", and you can look up Plato's Gorgias to see the somewhat ridiculous way Socrates treats this argument.

Quote:
bierfaust:
"they should sit down and read it." THAT right there.

Who the **** are you to say what people should and shouldn't do? I never noticed that little bit until I wrote my article, and that just ****ed me right off. Sick of self righteous pricks that think they know what is best for everyone.

Got news for you, but if you write something, there's absolutely no way anyone should ever give a ****, that is matter of choice whether they read it or not. And that, is exactly why I'm defending queue dodging.

Choice.


I'm sorry, but you've misunderstood me. That comment was on why there was no tl;dr. Indeed, choice. Either people decide it's worth reading and make that commitment, or they do not. I'm not trying nor can I enforce anyone to read my posts.

Quote:
bierfaust:
EDIT: Lawl just looked up your profile. You play Co Op vs AI, your entire argument is now completely invalid. Wished I looked that up before I wrote my novel. lol.


It's pronounced "El oh el". And as I explained above, this is my smurf, where I mostly just get my first win of the day, rather than play with ~220-270 ping. My main account is on eu-w.
If you mean my one AI game on eu-w every day, then yeah, first win of the day and lag test. I do work full time, so I rather reset my clock early.

One more comment, which I'd like to make.
It's very unsurprising to me that people who seem to stand against the return of the dodge penalty think you can't carry in Dominion. This is false - there are at least a dozen smurfs I know which by level 12 crossed 1,800 Elo and had been matched solely with level 30 summoners.

This also seems to state that if someone got to high Elo by way of solo-queue it's completely random and up to luck.

This is the same argument low Elo players make about Summoner's Rift and the inability to carry in a 5 man team game. Now, I can yield that carrying in Dominion is harder than on SR, but it's do-able, and it's also different. You can carry and have a negative k/d/a. You carry in Dominion mostly by way of decision making, not by actually being in every fight or getting every kill.

I hard carried a very large segment of my games from 1,700 to 1,900 Elo.

(This part was edited in), are you really saying that as a ~1,600 Elo, you wouldn't hard-carry in 1,000 Elo Dominion? Your team-mates might very well be terrible, but they'll be equally terrible (or good) as the players on the enemy team. You should be making the difference.
If you can't carry, it means you're more or less at the level where you belong, or just extremely unlucky, and although it's always easier to blame failure on external forces, it's better to own up.


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Minaro

Junior Member

08-06-2012

Quote:
Kierloway:
It's much easier to deal with people dodging in a quick queue then it is to deal with a bad team for twenty minutes. And by bad team I mean deal with people who don't care if they win or lose, they only care that they can play whatever character they want, to the detriment of the team. That's not the way to play the game and having the option to choose that part at least is a good thing. A penalty of perhaps two minutes I would be ok with, but anything beyond that is not alright with me. I'd rather not only be able to queue up every 10 or 15 minutes. I usually wait a couple of minutes after I dodge so I don't encounter the same people again. I let them have their picks, that's fine...I juts don't want to have anything to do with the game involving them.

Putting penalties on us for exercising caution would be bad for the game.

Not everyone has quick queue's. I stopped playing matched Dominion games long ago because my queue times would regularily hit a few hours. I've had times when I've queue'd for about an hour, get matched up with people and then someone dodged. I can only assume from this point on what happened since I can't really see what matchmaking did, but most likely the players that it had found suitable to match with and against me were no longer suitable to match with/against me after that someone dodged, so they got matched with someone else instead. Meanwhile, I had to spend a few more hours queueing to actually get a game.

Long story short? Queue dodges have made my queue times several hours longer in total.

Like Disc, I can agree to a queue dodge if it is for a good reason, such as having been matched up with a known troll or excessive flamer, but it should still have penalties. As it is, some people dodge as soon as they see ANYTHING that isn't to their liking. I'm sure there's plenty of people on low Elo in dominion who dodge when they see someone pick revive.


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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

08-06-2012

I remember dodging revive back in the day a couple of times, but usually when the whole match-up was iffy. I didn't dodge people with revive all the time, I'm a live and let live kinda guy

Man, that sure brings back memories.


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Psi21

Senior Member

08-06-2012

Allowing me to Dodge in dominion is the only thing keeping me from play Proving Grounds all day.

Sorry but,

1. I am not going to play with a full team of SR idiots who run Flash over Revive.
2. I am not going to play with "huck a spear all day never teamplay, nidalee"
3. I am not going to play with a team of all AP and no tanky dps.
4. I am not going to play with a team that using racial slurs the minute I join.


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HaIfhearted

Senior Member

08-06-2012

Quote:
Psi21:
Allowing me to Dodge in dominion is the only thing keeping me from play Proving Grounds all day.

Sorry but,

1. I am not going to play with a full team of SR idiots who run Flash over Revive.
2. I am not going to play with "huck a spear all day never teamplay, nidalee"
3. I am not going to play with a team of all AP and no tanky dps.
4. I am not going to play with a team that using racial slurs the minute I join.


Oh, I'm fine with this.

Just dodge, and then wait your 5 minute penalty before you can requeue.
That way you don't have to deal with whatever it was you dodged, the person you dodged will already be in game, or at *least* a different lobby, and people who dodge for even the slightest reason will have a better reason to stay in queue and not piss me off.

Some of the flash/ignite SR guys have very high level mechanical skills. Yeah, their Dominion knowledge might be a bit off, but that doesn't stop them from being skilled players.

Btw, if you always dodge Nidalees, you will never experience the *good* Nidalees.
I'm talking about that guy who hits at least 60-70% of his spears, traps up key points of the map to reveal people moving around in the jungle, gives you and your teammates clutch heals, and generally carries the game by himself.

When you dodge specific champions, you miss out on the good as well as the bad.

I've also won a game where LITERALLY my entire team was ranged AD champs.
You can do almost anything in low-mid elo, if you and your team has the skill to pull it off.

The only point of yours that I will agree with is #4.
I will not play with those *******s either, and will very gladly dodge them.
However, guys like that don't pop up too often, and I'm still more than willing to take a 5-minute dodge penalty to avoid that sort of trash.