Dodge Penalty

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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

08-05-2012

We're arguing against people in blind getting on the wrong team/seeing something they don't like, dodging, and then getting back into the same champ select with you all. And again, and again, like 3-4 times for the same person.


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Genericke

Senior Member

08-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscworldDeath View Post
We're arguing against people in blind getting on the wrong team/seeing something they don't like, dodging, and then getting back into the same champ select with you all. And again, and again, like 3-4 times for the same person.
Admittedly I've had it happen a few times where I've dodged my team with Nidalee, Teemo and Kat only to get put back on it again. It's beautiful when I dodge successfully and get put on the team against them though.


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bierfaust

Senior Member

08-05-2012

If they put the dodge penalty back in, then they just lost a customer, and most likely as a result probably another 2.

The fact that one part of this game that I enjoy is trolled constantly and people have such a blasť attitude towards it in general is bad enough.

The second they remove my ability to leave a team of 2 ranged AD, 2 AP squishys and something stupid like veigar, or anything stupid combination that will not work regardless of peoples opinions of individual Champions and/or "metas" - without penalty, would definitely be a deal breaker for me and most likely the 2 people I regularly play with. Which is 3 lots of RP they will never be getting any more of.

I have a sneaky suspicion I would not be alone on this.


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bierfaust

Senior Member

08-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by KawkRawket View Post
or you could try to carry your teammates. but i'm guessing you're much too bad a player to do that.
Most retarded comment ever. There is no possible way to carry a dominion game where you are needed in a minimum of 3 places at once.

This may be possible on SR where the end goal is the nexus but that is not the case on DOM.

You can carry by getting fed, that entirely depends on how stupid the opposition is. Most people, if out played (which most of you seem to think will be case) will put their hand up and ask for a swap out of bot or adjust the way they approach next time.

Only a complete idiot keeps running headfirst into a brick all expecting different results from the last 5 times.


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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

08-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genericke View Post
It's beautiful when I dodge successfully and get put on the team against them though.
No, it's not.

It makes me want to repeat dodge so the repeat dodger doesn't get into a game either.

This is players being rewarded for acting in ways that should not be encouraged - to dodge players they think suck and then get put on the team against them. Screw that.


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bierfaust

Senior Member

08-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscworldDeath View Post
No, it's not.

It makes me want to repeat dodge so the repeat dodger doesn't get into a game either.

This is players being rewarded for acting in ways that should not be encouraged - to dodge players they think suck and then get put on the team against them. Screw that.
How is opting to not play in a crappy lineup and/or combination, something that should not be encouraged?

If anything you should get bonus points for identifying a bad lineup and dodging it.

I don't care if your queue times are 10 mins, im not putting up with 5 **** games just to get 1 with a decent lineup (I.E. not retarded).

As it stands, It's usually 5 dodges to 1 game for me because I get some dip**** lock in eve, shaco and xerath or something stupid like that.

EDIT: Why should they implement it for the most likely less than 50 people, while the rest of us (probably only like a couple hundred, but still) have to suffer?

Just put in ranked dominion and that would be fine. (with dodge penalties)


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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

08-06-2012

Your argument is full of holes, let me show some of them to you:

1. Did you ever see me saying you shouldn't be allowed to dodge? No. That's a straw man. I just said it should have a cost, why I'll explain later. But if you're willing to pay the cost? Go ahead and dodge.

2. You said this is going to be implemented for the sake of 50 people over hundreds of more? This is very mistaken.
Let's say 1% of the population can't handle dodges due to their matchmaking times, but we'll ignore these 1% due to being small.
Let's say 10% of the population dodges games regularly to avoid games where they think they won't have fun.
These 10% are thousands of people, we'll agree on that.

But these 10% do ruin the game experience for the other 90%. These 90% who never, or almost never dodge, sometimes have to sit through 3-5 queues before they actually get to play the game, which is all they want.

Now, let's say there is no dodge penalty, and the same dodger keeps getting into the same queue. This dodger is not happy, he dodged in order to not be in the same game as these people. These people aren't happy, they keep getting dodged on. A dodge penalty will help that.

But no, a "punishment", or more precisely, a "cost" is definitely in order. The dodger just took, considering they often dodge at the end of champ select, about 2 minutes from each of the 9 other players, for a total of nearly 20 minutes. And they shouldn't pay for that?

And if that person, as you said, dodges 5 times before playing 1 game, he just wasted 100 minutes of other people's time, over an hour and a half, and they shouldn't be held accountable?

This is the universal morality, you can't wish things you don't want done to you to be things you can do to others, assuming everyone can do the same things. You wishing to not be held accountable for contracts, which in turn could mean no one is to be held accountable for contracts, for a commonly made example, would undermine the whole concept of contracts.

You want to get into a game, so you can't wish for something that could indefinitely stop you from getting into games.

3. Did you know Co-op vs. AI has dodge penalty? This is for the reasons stated above. If these players keep getting dodged on, they're less likely to keep playing, due to a bad first impression. Now here's a secret, one bad first impression jolt can be enough. But a continued and prolonged bad expression can make someone drop something even without a negative first impression.

4. Building from 3-4, you say you're only hurting a select few people. That's how Draft was killed. People had long queues, and dodgers, and this helped ensure even people with 5 minute queue dodge penalty could get back into the same queue, and dodge again, so they stopped. Now those just under them had progressively longer queue dodges, and they also stopped.

5. YOU are the 50 people who benefit from dodge. The vast majority of players never dodge. Ever. But those who dodge, time and time again, with impunity, keep trickling down the side effects, having killed a game mode all on their own. You're the minority, not the majority.

The high Elo players just feel it really badly, because their queue pool is small enough, and queue times long enough, that the dodger will be back in the same game with the same pool of people, and dodge, and dodge, and dodge.
But guess what, so is the situation with draft.

And I'm sorry, even if we're not talking about being "penalized", let's say the game has 5 people playing "suspect" picks, 4 playing good picks, and you. Why should you be rewarded for dodging time and time again, until you get 3-4 of the solid pickers on your team?
That's called wasting time to game the system. And you know where that works? In offline solo games, where you game the minigames/equipment systems until everything's perfect. Many RPGs are designed like that.

But that's your time. The problem is you are bringing this mentality at the cost of other people's time, and fun. You are wasting other people's time, you are only thinking of your own fun.

You are being selfish, and should grow up. You should especially notice you're accusing of others being selfish, when your argument is centered about what is fun for you. The gall.

No, there is no tl;dr. I spent the time to write this, and since this is all about people wasting other people's time, if I took the time out of my day to address others in this depth, they should sit down and read it.


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bierfaust

Senior Member

08-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscworldDeath View Post
Your argument is full of holes, let me show some of them to you:

1. Did you ever see me saying you shouldn't be allowed to dodge? No. That's a straw man. I just said it should have a cost, why I'll explain later. But if you're willing to pay the cost? Go ahead and dodge.

2. You said this is going to be implemented for the sake of 50 people over hundreds of more? This is very mistaken.
Let's say 1% of the population can't handle dodges due to their matchmaking times, but we'll ignore these 1% due to being small.
Let's say 10% of the population dodges games regularly to avoid games where they think they won't have fun.
These 10% are thousands of people, we'll agree on that.

But these 10% do ruin the game experience for the other 90%. These 90% who never, or almost never dodge, sometimes have to sit through 3-5 queues before they actually get to play the game, which is all they want.

Now, let's say there is no dodge penalty, and the same dodger keeps getting into the same queue. This dodger is not happy, he dodged in order to not be in the same game as these people. These people aren't happy, they keep getting dodged on. A dodge penalty will help that.

But no, a "punishment", or more precisely, a "cost" is definitely in order. The dodger just took, considering they often dodge at the end of champ select, about 2 minutes from each of the 9 other players, for a total of nearly 20 minutes. And they shouldn't pay for that?

And if that person, as you said, dodges 5 times before playing 1 game, he just wasted 100 minutes of other people's time, over an hour and a half, and they shouldn't be held accountable?

This is the universal morality, you can't wish things you don't want done to you to be things you can do to others, assuming everyone can do the same things. You wishing to not be held accountable for contracts, which in turn could mean no one is to be held accountable for contracts, for a commonly made example, would undermine the whole concept of contracts.

You want to get into a game, so you can't wish for something that could indefinitely stop you from getting into games.

3. Did you know Co-op vs. AI has dodge penalty? This is for the reasons stated above. If these players keep getting dodged on, they're less likely to keep playing, due to a bad first impression. Now here's a secret, one bad first impression jolt can be enough. But a continued and prolonged bad expression can make someone drop something even without a negative first impression.

4. Building from 3-4, you say you're only hurting a select few people. That's how Draft was killed. People had long queues, and dodgers, and this helped ensure even people with 5 minute queue dodge penalty could get back into the same queue, and dodge again, so they stopped. Now those just under them had progressively longer queue dodges, and they also stopped.

5. YOU are the 50 people who benefit from dodge. The vast majority of players never dodge. Ever. But those who dodge, time and time again, with impunity, keep trickling down the side effects, having killed a game mode all on their own. You're the minority, not the majority.

The high Elo players just feel it really badly, because their queue pool is small enough, and queue times long enough, that the dodger will be back in the same game with the same pool of people, and dodge, and dodge, and dodge.
But guess what, so is the situation with draft.

And I'm sorry, even if we're not talking about being "penalized", let's say the game has 5 people playing "suspect" picks, 4 playing good picks, and you. Why should you be rewarded for dodging time and time again, until you get 3-4 of the solid pickers on your team?
That's called wasting time to game the system. And you know where that works? In offline solo games, where you game the minigames/equipment systems until everything's perfect. Many RPGs are designed like that.

But that's your time. The problem is you are bringing this mentality at the cost of other people's time, and fun. You are wasting other people's time, you are only thinking of your own fun.

You are being selfish, and should grow up. You should especially notice you're accusing of others being selfish, when your argument is centered about what is fun for you. The gall.

No, there is no tl;dr. I spent the time to write this, and since this is all about people wasting other people's time, if I took the time out of my day to address others in this depth, they should sit down and read it.
I'm not even going to bother to respond to most of that dribble. You're pretty much making a big deal about nothing.

A few things Ill correct you on though.

There would hardly be thousands of people playing DOM at any given time. Even 1000 would be a huge stretch. My queue times vary between 30 secs on weekends to 4 mins during the week (when queued with friends). Mostly the queue time is about 2 mins or so. And I quite frequently see at least 2 people per game that I see at least 1/3 games, so the queue pools are extremely tiny. (Im only about 1700 elo I think)

Trying to say that someone that dodges is wasting other peoples time collectively is just stupid. Yes everyone gets put back in the queue, but more often than not only the dodgers spot gets filled, so they enter back into the queue with 9/10 players. Unless you play at like 3am it's not gonna take that long to fill. (And considering how messed up the elo rubber-banding is they just grab anyone that is free)

There already is an inherent dodge penalty, it's the time it takes someone to relog, invite their friends and then re-queue and hope they don't get more retarded choices. Usually when I dodge I wait for 30 secs or if someone else dodges, I leave queue and wait 30 secs. And most times the game with the 9/10 other people is well on its way by the time I re-queue.

Co-Op vs AI is irrelevant, and quite frankly anyone that plays it should be banned from playing with other players until they go through probation matches to determine whether they are even capable of playing a video game in general.

No draft was killed because people don't like Champions they enjoy playing be banned. So they won't play banning draft at all. And most people hate draft mode anyway because it takes forever in a day to get into the game even if nobody dodges. (And DOM is supposed to be quicker than SR) There is a difference between people just not wanting to play with Champions being banned, and people dodging because they don't like the bans that were picked. Quite hard to determine but a very real situation.

Pretty much all I see here is butthurt and someone that doesn't like people to have a choice in what team they have. If I don't like a team set up, why the hell should I have to waste 20-30 mins and probably end up losing? (as is usually the case when I don't dodge a stupid lineup. Because the nature of the game mode is that the team with better synergy and also independent performance wins)

Basically you want to hurt those of us that actually care about our DOM games and want to have fun through a tight competitive and close game. I don't like face rolling just as badly as I hate being on the receiving end. Most people would agree. And for those that do have huge queue times due to ELO, I'm sorry, but that's Riots fault for not promoting the game mode and balancing it. But I'm not about to put up with having 1/5 good games just to keep a very small minority happy.

"they should sit down and read it." THAT right there.

Who the **** are you to say what people should and shouldn't do? I never noticed that little bit until I wrote my article, and that just ****ed me right off. Sick of self righteous pricks that think they know what is best for everyone.

Got news for you, but if you write something, there's absolutely no way anyone should ever give a ****, that is matter of choice whether they read it or not. And that, is exactly why I'm defending queue dodging.

Choice.

EDIT: Lawl just looked up your profile. You play Co Op vs AI, your entire argument is now completely invalid. Wished I looked that up before I wrote my novel. lol.


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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

08-06-2012

For your edit, this is a smurf so I could post on NA forum, try this:
http://lolmatches.com/player/euw/251...DiscworldDeath


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MyDeadGrandma

Senior Member

08-06-2012

Are the EU queue times really that bad? I sit around just under 2k and play during off-peak U.S. times and hardly get a queue longer than 2 minutes, 3 if I'm unlucky. Dodging is worth the wait for a chance at a decent game.

It's only the higher elo group that have absurdly long queue times, hardly what I'd call the majority.