Utility tree?

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Taenaryn

Senior Member

08-05-2012

I need people to rip apart this mastery concept. In essence, I'm building AD Malz (aka Manamune) and went all the way down to get Strength of Spirit. At the end of the game, I had 121 per 5 health regen, according to my stats card.

I was vs Heimer. In general, I'd have the upper hand, though after they ganked me, it would take me a while to fight my way back to his bot. With 3% spell vamp on top of the health regen, I'd only up mana packs for the mana, rarely the health.

Now, this was just one game. With revive/garrison and cherry-picking Utility and offence for CDR, MS and the regen... is this just a gimmick? What am I sacrificing? If I wasn't able to run from the gank, I usually died fast, but then I usually die fast anyways to a gank.


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FDru

Senior Member

08-05-2012

It's common belief that it's easier to build defense and to get as much offense as you can from masteries. You'd probably benefit more from dumping a bunch of points into offense for the double penetration and CDR, lifesteal, etc. Even the 10 AD mastery is going to be good since you get up to triple AD scaling with voidlings.


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Taenaryn

Senior Member

08-05-2012

I would not have thought Lifesteal would be very effectual. Unless voidlings scale with LS too?

In general, I would agree, especially with the Scar aura. Most of my pages are down the offense tree. I'm talking about the specific case of a tear user in a poke war on the bottom lane. I've heard a lot of talk about sustain, and this would seem to be a fairly niche way to get sustain, no?


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HaIfhearted

Senior Member

08-05-2012

Lings don't benefit from lifesteal in any way, including Zekes aura.

Although I have to admit that Strength of Spirit is an interesting idea for AD Malz to complement all the mana you are buying.
Since Malz has no innate sustain, I can certainly see the potential for it on him.

Need more opinions.


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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

08-05-2012

I've always wanted to see more x/x/21 Ryzes, Strength on Spirit on Ryze for a tank that if you don't kill, is just irremovable.


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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

08-05-2012

Utility tree really boned over having a real choice at 5th tier. Most trees have choices way earlier, so you can give up a higher tier's points for them as well.


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ElevenOfClubs

Senior Member

08-06-2012

I'll give it a try. I'm low ELO, but that's more a result of my terrible fundementals than poor strategy.

I'll assume you take mana over time dead, which gives 12 mana per level. You can then grab either 4% time dead or enhanced recall, as you like. I'd prefer enhanced recall because that 0.5 seconds back lets you shop quicking and dodge ganks by hitting b (if you're lucky), where as 4% time dead is going to get you back to point at most 1 second earlier. I think that's a matter of prefernce.

Move speed OP. Every which way.

GP/sec is pretty useless. It'll net you 12 gold/minute, which isn't enough to buy anything but potions over the standard dominion game (26:19 before it'll get you a cloth armor b/c it doesn't tick until the battle begins). So you take Spell Vamp for some natural sustain and Runnic affinity to abuse speed shrine for getting around and getting more out of Health Relics (I've heard that it does that, but haven't bothered to check).

5% XP gain is really good on this map, it will help you get a level advantage quickly and lord it over your lane opponent the whole game.

You now get strength of Spirit for 1% mana as hp/5.

You then grab the "Reduce Revive CD by 1 minute" mastery b/c it reduces the cool down of Revive by more than a minute.

You pick up the Mastery for both your summoners in D, grab AD, 2 minion damage or 1 AP, doesn't really matter, and 4% CD in offense.

If you went 21/1/8 Offense you'd trade:
So you'd be rocking:

  • 2% CDR
  • 3% spell vamp
  • 5% XP gained
  • A seven and a half minute cooldown on Revive
  • Strength of Spirit

For something like:
  • 4% Attack Speed
  • 10% Armor pen and 10% Magic Pen
  • 6 Flat armor Pen
  • Your choice of 0.375 AD/Level 1.5% damage or 3% lifesteal
  • 6% damage to targets below 40% health, aka kill potential

If you went defense tree, it'd probably look like
  • 3 AD and either 2 more vs minions or 1 AP
  • 6% CDR
  • 5% XP gained
  • A seven and a half minute cooldown on Revive
  • Strength of Spirit

For:
  • 2-6 Armor and Magic Resist
  • 6 hp/level + 40 flat HP + 3% HP
  • Reduce incoming damage by 1
  • 3% MS when near full health
  • 0.45% CDR/level (pulling ahead at level 13ish)
  • 0.5% Reduced damage
  • 10% CC reduction
That's assuming you want the MS & Mana more than you want the CDR and Attack damage, which you may not (thought being you can buy more CDR, but you aren't really going to buy more MS).

Let's talk about what Strength of Spirit gives.

At level 10 assuming a fully charged Tear/Mana and glacial shroud you're looking at about 5 HP/Second. (25.95 hp/5). At level 18 with a fully charged Manamune + FH + Oden's Veil + Triforce, (essentially the cap) you're looking at 37.26 hp/5. At level 3 with a tear with virtually no charge it's only 8 hp/5. Before CS aura, of course.

All in all not a lot of HP regen. Maybe a 100-200 hp in in over the course of a fight. It's not going to be enough to ignore good harass w/o control of the health relic, but will make you immune to weak harass. 3% spell vamp will give ~2.4 hp/second while MV is ticking, less enemy MR less CS aura, call it 1.5 hp/sec or 7.5 hp/5.

So that's the trade off your looking at, 20~30 hp/5, more revive up time and 5% XP for either the CC reduction and hp or the significantly increased kill, harass and push potential from going offense.

Sounds like it might be worth it if people are going to try to push (e.g. vs Yorric, HIem) but not worth it people are going to duel (e.g. Jax, Udyr).


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Taenaryn

Senior Member

08-07-2012

Hmmm. It embarrasses me, but I did not do any math at all before posting that.

Your math looked good, but your numbers did not look at all like the 121/5sec that was on my character stat card. So I had to figure out where I got that number. Ultimately, I figured with FH, Manamune and its passive, Utility mana, and personal mana, I got ~37. Add another 14.5 for personal regen at 18. Still didn't match the stat card. Then I remembered: I had had Force of Nature in my build that game (I was trying it instead of Maw for my Mres that game). That does indeed change things, since more than half my regen came from FoN.

But FoN is a great tanky item, and it has the benefit of not having an active, like Odyn's Veil (one of my weaknesses is I can never remember to use the active). Also, movespeed. Yummy movespeed.

Is 121/5 a good regen number? It seemed like it helped, but objectively, I don't know if that's the case.


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ElevenOfClubs

Senior Member

08-07-2012

No problem. I actually had a spread sheet set up to do this sorta stuff (I wanted to be **** sure before I spent IP on % hp runes, and thanks to math, I didn't).

121/5 will help. It's like having at least an extra ruby crystal every fight you don't get blown up, or more in a drawn out fight. Or essentially nothing if you get ignited >.>

60/5 is at the range where it will help you survive a drawn out fight or help you tank out weaker harass.

Anything less than that, and I wouldn't bother unless your expecting long times in lane to play the push game (which is kinda what you want to get into with AD Malz as I understand it).

Also remember Scar Aura reduces hp/5, and to check to see how much HP you'd get off lifesteal to see if that'd be a better option.

~ElevenOfClubs


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lbgsloan

Senior Member

08-07-2012

Strength of Spirit is a decent mastery on the worst possible tree location. Unless you go over 21 points in utility, you have to give up 2 points in Intellegence (ie 4% CDR) for it. Not to mention the entire middle of the Utility tree is useless on Dominion. If you aren't support, it's pretty unpopular on SR too. Hopefully they do another mastery overhaul in season 3, because it really needs one. Defence, while very strong overall, has a lot of trash masteries that need to be replaced too.


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