Respawn timers and wave spawn are stupid

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Genericke

Senior Member

11-11-2013

We've protested them a lot, but I think it's time something is done about them for season 4. We've all benefitted from, and been on the receiving end of respawn timers and wave spawn completely screwing over a team. People such as David have tried to figure out the respawn system, and it makes zero sense. Don't tell me a team is pulling ahead because they're doing things like using revive better. When your team is dying significantly more than the other team is, you deserve to be punished for it.

It adds an element of randomness to this game mode that's almost impossible to account for, and it makes for some stupid strategies. It's better to slowly kill off one champ on the enemy team at a team, or explode them all within 2 seconds of each other. That way they can't catch each other's respawn timers. If you're going to die within 5 seconds, rather than running away and distracting the enemy team, if someone else on your team has just died you benefit more from dying sooner than later so you can catch your teammate's respawn. I find it funny how people run when they know they're going to die. Dying sooner is often VERY beneficial, and a lot of people don't seem to realize this.

Finally, I understand that the respawn timers are there to try and prevent dominion from getting snowbally, but there's nothing more snowbally IMO than having the enemy team's points frozen at 30, while you have an advantage that you're slowly losing at 150 points. We've all seen it. Team 1 outplays Team 2 at the windmill, so Team 2 uses all of their revives early on. The fights continue to be one sided and Team 2 appears to be losing, because for every good play they manage to make, Team 1 still has revives that Team 2 has to get through. Eventually it gets to be a "nailbiting" "close game" where Team 2 has all of their revives back around the same time, while Team 1 doesn't have any because Team 1 never had to use them in the first place. Team 2 closes the gap and manages to pull out from behind with an "amazing" win.

The way I see it, if a team has a significant kill advantage over the other team, the other team should be spending more time dead, and yet I've started keeping track. There've been a lot of games where teams have gotten more kills and spent significantly more time dead. I've attached screencaps for proof. In them you see champ kills, as well as time spent dead (and I posted the final score at the end of each image).

Fix respawn timers and wave respawn. This is something we've beeen wanting now for a long time. It'd go a long way to making dominion feel more rewarding and competitive.

Edit: adding more screencaps!!!!

Attached Images
File Type: jpg respawn timers OP 2 jpg.jpg (252.1 KB, 182 views)
File Type: jpg respawn timers OP 4 jpg.jpg (248.6 KB, 74 views)
File Type: jpg respawn timers OP 3 jpg.jpg (254.0 KB, 54 views)
File Type: jpg Respawn timers OP jpg.jpg (276.1 KB, 48 views)
File Type: jpg respawn timers OP 5 jpg.jpg (270.5 KB, 47 views)
File Type: jpg respawn timers OP 6 jpg.jpg (266.2 KB, 49 views)
File Type: jpg respawn timers OP 7.jpg (243.9 KB, 39 views)

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Manse

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Senior Member

11-11-2013

Good to see hard data on this, that's for sure.


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Chavez Obama

Senior Member

11-11-2013

Season 4 is just around the corner, and they have been working on it for two years (since the beginning of season 2). I'm sure Riot has this fixed and ready to go live.


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Pylair

Senior Member

11-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chavez Obama View Post
Season 4 is just around the corner, and they have been working on it for two years (since the beginning of season 2). I'm sure Riot has this fixed and ready to go live.
all they need to do is flip the switch


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Koravel

Senior Member

11-11-2013

Nearly every one of those is working exactly as intended. Wolfer explained it. I don't think you understand that more kills do not necessarily mean more time spent dead, with or without respawn timers. We are talking +/-2.

I really don't think is nearly as big a deal as most people make it out to be. Yes you have to continue to outplay people. You don't get to just sit on your laurels. If you start dying late, you're in trouble.

Most of the pics in here are like 4 more deaths and <2min less spent dead.

Pic 1: Same number of kills, one team is dead five minutes less than the other. However, one team, (the winning team), did more damage and took significantly less damage than the losing team.

Pic 2: Your team has 4 more kills and spends 57 seconds more time dead. This could easily be explained by tactically holding onto respawn and not using it. Your team deals significantly more damage to the enemy team than they do to you... but there is a Warwick and a Mao on their team. Though I cant see the WW's build, if he went tanky, this could explain that.

Pic 3: Again a spread of 4 more kills, this time the team with the greater amount of kills spending 96 more seconds dead. However, your team is significantly out-damaged in this game and took significantly more damage than the enemy team. Their teemo probably took the late game and rolled with it, looking at his kills and damage dealt.

Pic 4: The most egregious example. 3 more kills and nearly 200 more seconds spent dead. Lacking a replay, we cannot say what happened exactly, explained later on.

Pic 5: 68-64 in kills, 35 more seconds dead. Not even about timers at all. Way too close to say that was what happened.

Pic 6: 15 more kills, 53 seconds less spent dead. Again, one of the only two example that are actually at fault- but the real issue is addressed below.

You are confusing the real issue here.

There is something similar in SR- the death timers are way longer late. If you die early, and then you kill the other team late, the same thing would happen as happens in Dom, almost. The difference is, in SR, if you die early and consistently, the other person will get so far ahead that you wont come back from it.

The real culprit here is the passive gold aura. People can throw games early and cannot possibly be shut down enough, so if they survive to late game, given the passive gold aura, they will all but catch back up.

If respawn timers were truly a huge issue, I would expect to see the tourney always wildly fluctuating who was winning, etc., not being dominated by one team.

There is only one thing that needs to be changed for the timers. Once the enemy nexus is under 120 health, it cuts off any respawn boosts.


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Nexus Crawler

Senior Member

11-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pylair View Post
all they need to do is flip the switch
I keep wondering where that switch is. The damn thing must be better guarded than Fort Knox.


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Genericke

Senior Member

11-11-2013

Quote:
If respawn timers were truly a huge issue, I would expect to see the tourney always wildly fluctuating who was winning, etc., not being dominated by one team.
I'm not even going to explain to you why you're wrong here, that's something else entirely. You just are.

Quote:
There is only one thing that needs to be changed for the timers. Once the enemy nexus is under 120 health, it cuts off any respawn boosts
Eating a 28 second respawn timer at 300 points isn't a big deal. ****, even eating a longer respawn timers because the score is 419 - 418 isn't a big deal. It turns into a huge deal when it's 40 - 17 and you just ate a 28 second respawn.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Koravel View Post
Nearly every one of those is working exactly as intended. Wolfer explained it. I don't think you understand that more kills do not necessarily mean more time spent dead, with or without respawn timers. We are talking +/-2.
4 second differences in respawns in combination with wave respawn gets to be a pretty big deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koravel View Post
I really don't think is nearly as big a deal as most people make it out to be. Yes you have to continue to outplay people. You don't get to just sit on your laurels. If you start dying late, you're in trouble.

Most of the pics in here are like 4 more deaths and <2min less spent dead.

Pic 1: Same number of kills, one team is dead five minutes less than the other. However, one team, (the winning team), did more damage and took significantly less damage than the losing team.

Pic 2: Your team has 4 more kills and spends 57 seconds more time dead. This could easily be explained by tactically holding onto respawn and not using it. Your team deals significantly more damage to the enemy team than they do to you... but there is a Warwick and a Mao on their team. Though I cant see the WW's build, if he went tanky, this could explain that.

Pic 3: Again a spread of 4 more kills, this time the team with the greater amount of kills spending 96 more seconds dead. However, your team is significantly out-damaged in this game and took significantly more damage than the enemy team. Their teemo probably took the late game and rolled with it, looking at his kills and damage dealt.

Pic 4: The most egregious example. 3 more kills and nearly 200 more seconds spent dead. Lacking a replay, we cannot say what happened exactly, explained later on.

Pic 5: 68-64 in kills, 35 more seconds dead. Not even about timers at all. Way too close to say that was what happened.

Pic 6: 15 more kills, 53 seconds less spent dead. Again, one of the only two example that are actually at fault- but the real issue is addressed below.

You are confusing the real issue here.

There is something similar in SR- the death timers are way longer late. If you die early, and then you kill the other team late, the same thing would happen as happens in Dom, almost. The difference is, in SR, if you die early and consistently, the other person will get so far ahead that you wont come back from it.

The real culprit here is the passive gold aura. People can throw games early and cannot possibly be shut down enough, so if they survive to late game, given the passive gold aura, they will all but catch back up.
I'll go over the games and why there were an issue.

Picture 1: both teams had identical kills, but one team spent 296 more seconds dead than the other team did. I don't see how a 5 minute difference indicates that the system is working when kills are identical. That's a broken system.

Disproportionate damage dealt can be attributed to a lot of things. In this case the winning team had 4 ADs and a Lulu. Diana dying 19 times indicates that she got ganked to hell and back, and that the winning team was abusing its mobility and map positioning to win because they knew they couldn't win team fights. Despite clearly outplaying the losing team it got to be waaaay too close because they spent 5 more minutes dead. Competely ridiculous.

Picture 2: A difference of 67 seconds despite getting 4 MORE kills than the losing team. The damage difference is absurd, and it's clear which team deserved the win. They got it, but respawn timers were so close to screwing the winning team over.

Picture 3: 96 second difference. All of those champs are late game champs indicating that they managed to scale and reach critical mass. In reality the game should've closed out earlier. You can bet your ass the losing team got wrecked early on and that things were a lot more one sided. You shouldn't be able to pick 3 late game champs and expect it to pan out. You need a more balanced team comp than that.

Picture 4: 197 seconds of difference that resulted in a loss for the losing team. I remember that game we got their nexus health super low, but ultimately couldn't keep up with their respawn timers. 3 minutes 20 seconds is a big deal. Especially when the losing team killed the winning team a lot more and significantly outdamaged them.

Picture 5: That game we completely shat on them early. Unfortunately they had 4 champs who scaled into late game a bit too well and they pulled ahead and closed the gap. IMO the constant outplaying earlier on shouldn't have been rewarded. 32 seconds is meaningful when the losing team had 4 more kills.

Picture 6: The losing team killed the enemy team 15 more times, and outdamaged them a respectable amount. The winning team was punished for this by being dead for 35 more seconds. Assuming +/-2 the winning team should've spent 24*15 more seconds dead (360...6 whole minutes). Revives can only shave off so much. This game demonstrates how stupid wave respawn can get.

I really don't understand how you can defend this system when I've provided 6 CLEAR examples of respawn timers and respawn wave mechanics going into overdrive. It's not okay.


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Koravel

Senior Member

11-11-2013

Because they arent six clear examples. I'm not defending the system, it needs adjustment.

I just see tons of people blaming it for way too many things its not at fault for, and ignoring themselves playing poorly in certain cases when they could have easily won the game in spite of the respawn timers. And in four of those six examples that could be the case, impossible to know without replays.

I don't want Dominion to be a map where you get a lead early and get to sit on it and win. I play enough TT to know that that system is stupid as ****.


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Genericke

Senior Member

11-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koravel View Post
Because they arent six clear examples. I'm not defending the system, it needs adjustment.

I just see tons of people blaming it for way too many things its not at fault for, and ignoring themselves playing poorly in certain cases when they could have easily won the game in spite of the respawn timers. And in four of those six examples that could be the case, impossible to know without replays.

I don't want Dominion to be a map where you get a lead early and get to sit on it and win. I play enough TT to know that that system is stupid as ****.
You defend the system in your initial post by saying that it's working as intended, and then follow up arguing that the real issue is passive gold gain making it impossible for teams to snowball early. In which case if you're so worried about teams sitting on an advantage and winning, the global gold gain will nullify this from ever happening. Assuming gold is kept equal, the stronger team and team comp will win. Respawn timers and wave respawn are unneeded to prevent early game snowballing.

In their current state the respawn timers give an unfair advantage to the losing team. The way it is now, any good plays or advantage early game is almost meaningless and can't be pressed at all (assuming relatively even teams).

People can blame any variety of things for their losses, be it OPs, matchmaking, premades, or respawn timers HOWEVER respawn timers and wave spawn are things that've been known for a while now and need to be addressed. They're stupid. That's why I made this thread. That's why I find it weird someone would argue that they aren't dumb.


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Koravel

Senior Member

11-11-2013

Saying its working as intended does not mean I'm defending the system. That would assume I believe Riot's intentions for this map are accurate. I am saying it is doing what it is designed to do.

And if you continually twist what I'm trying to say then there's no reason to continue the conversation.

Once again, I am not saying they are not dumb. I am saying that your examples are not very good, most of them, and that respawn timers are, in the majority of cases where they are blamed, not actually the reason for the loss.