Playing to win versus Not playing to win

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ColdFireBeast

Senior Member

07-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiderParadox View Post
Yes, I read your whole article.

This is a problem I see in everything I play but am not wholly invested in. LOL, fighting games, card games, everything. It's the difference from the tryhard (someone who values winning over all else) versus the scrub (someone who isn't willing to commit to what it would seriously take to win.)

Overall what it comes down to is this: Some people don't want to do what it takes to win, and they don't care if they get a high ELO, they just want to play the champ that's fun for them. Would they win if they played Jax, or Kass, or W/E? Probably, if they practiced, but maybe that's boring for that player. Unless there's some reward they're aiming for, there's no real argument for them not playing that way.

Personally, you see the reward of "high ELO= you're a bigshot" as your reason to do whatever it takes to win. And that's fine, but I am honestly not sure how you win many games if you continually demoralize your team by "raging" at them.

Long story short, even the "for fun" players want to win. That's the point of the game, they're just not willing to give up their playstyle or invest in the math, calculations, and research it would take to get that good at the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiderParadox View Post
Not what I said. I said "I want to win but I don't want to do all of the work it requires to be a professional player."

Considering that you misunderstood me on such a basic level, there's no point replying to anything else you said, since they're arguments against a statement I did not make.

and if you honestly believe everyone who plays a sport, or a videogame should be trying to be pro level... I don't know what to say except "that's not how the world works...sorry?"
I quoted your original post. No where in it do you mention professional level play. You mention tryhard vs scrub. You mention high Elo to some extent. You mention Jax, Kass, or W/E. I don't see a single mention of professional level play or really even the intent in your writing. I'm also not asking anyone to try to be on the professional level. I'm not asking for teams, for vent/teamspeak usage, for nothing but Kass/Jax/etc. Hell, I'm not even really asking anything. I made a statement about how you saying you want to win is meaningless because you fail to demonstrate it via your actions.

I know how the world works. I played soccer and baseball with rec leagues and soccer on my high school team. I took karate. All of these were for my own fun and entertainment. At no point in them did I just shrug or tolerate people who did and go "WE'RE DOING IT FOR FUNSIES? PRACTICE? WHO CARES? LET'S GO SWIMMING!" To do any sort of team sport, you're expected to practice and to ****ing try. This is how the world works and I'm sorry you fail to grasp that. There are certain champions, builds, and combinations thereof that amount to going to a baseball game without a glove or a soccer game without cleets/shinguards. If you were in baseball and tried to walk around the bases instead of running, on anything save a homerune, then your team might actually beat you to death(this is hyperbole, I don't actually mean that). You can do it, sure(not really, ref and coaches probably wouldn't allow you), but it's pretty much ****ing retarded.


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SpiderParadox

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Senior Member

07-18-2012

Ok, so even though I told you what I meant you decided I meant something else?

Dude, thanks for telling me my *actions* (posting in a forum?) Mean I'm not serious about winning.

You can play a game with me and then tell me how I'm totally not serious. Even when I suck I'm trying my ass of.

But continue being an ******* and pretending I'm arguing something I'm not even saying. All I really said was that not everyone wants to be top tier, and that doesn't mean they don't want to win... really, that was IT.

And for the record, if you're on a baseball TEAM or basketball TEAM yeah you practice all the time, but if you just play in the lot after school that's probably all the practice you ever get, and there's nothing wrong with that.


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Melvear

Senior Member

07-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdFireBeast View Post
The difference here, and it's a big one, is that it doesn't take your whole childhood. It doesn't take your whole life. All it takes to improve at video games is to do basic research, maybe a few hours, to understand core concepts of what you're doing.
Since we brought sports into it, what people are saying is akin to, "Yeah I wanna win at basketball and soccer, but I don't really want to learn to dribble or pass." Really? Then most soccer(myself) or basketball players would say what? Perhaps that you don't actually want to win any games.
I can do research and practice with a lower tier champion just as much as I can do it with an op one.

For instance, I enjoy playing Nunu every once in a while, usually when I know I have a good ad carry to support. I know how to build him and how to play him, and I know his limitations. But I enjoy the games I play him even if he's not as strong as Kass or Pantheon. And I play to win. The only games I get into thinking "I'm gonna try something for ****s and giggles" are ai games.

To go on with the sport analogy, watching an all star team playing a normal team would probably be entertaining the first few times, but eventually, it'd be very boring to get the same result game after game.


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

07-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesMcStyles View Post
Bullsh!t, the match is already over the moment you got paired with people who don't care about winning.
With that attitude, you're absolutely right. You've already assumed the loss. You've given up. There is no way you, personally, will play to your best ability when you go in to a game with that mindset.

What you don't grasp, is that some people play their best when they're just having a good time. They can simply go in to a game thinking, "I'm going to play my best and have fun doing it," without the word 'win' popping in their head. That's just how some people are. Then you start raging about how they picked a champion you don't agree with, and they stop caring. They aren't having any fun any more and won't play to the best of their ability. For all you know, when that player is in the right state of mind, they could be the best ****ed Nidalee you've ever seen.

...but you already ruined that chance, because you started the game off raging at your team.

GG.

Oh, and I forgot to mention the three other people on the team. They hate you now too. You're ruining their experience. Everyone's receptivity to teamwork shuts down as soon as one player kicks off the relationship by bad mouthing the team.

Different people are different. Until you can wrap your head around that, LoL will be a challenging experience for you, unless you do nothing but 5-man queue so you can control who is on your team.

EDIT: Another point I failed to mention is you're ignoring the fact that the enemy team has different people on it too. Just because one player on your team has what you consider a 'troll' champion, doesn't mean the enemy team will not.


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IronAegis

Senior Member

07-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goronok View Post
Some good points and entertaining, I'd just like to point out that yelling at your team in game almost always pisses someone off, and then, angry or frustrated, they'll play worse... which usually leads to more yelling... then half the team has degenerated to typing instead of playing, then someone is so pissed off they just start feeding mercilessly, and then you've lost. Extreme negativity is a vicious cycle. :P

Basically, people who yell at their team and are negative for the hell of it are the people losing the game, to a much higher degree than anyone else.

Trolls lose games.
I also find that many people who "rage" are actually doing the worst on the team. They'll run face first into a tower guarded by 3 people, get curbstomped, then proceed to say "OMG my team is the worst!" Wait what?


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IronAegis

Senior Member

07-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdFireBeast View Post
I know how the world works. I played soccer and baseball with rec leagues and soccer on my high school team. I took karate. All of these were for my own fun and entertainment. At no point in them did I just shrug or tolerate people who did and go "WE'RE DOING IT FOR FUNSIES? PRACTICE? WHO CARES? LET'S GO SWIMMING!" To do any sort of team sport, you're expected to practice and to ****ing try. This is how the world works and I'm sorry you fail to grasp that. There are certain champions, builds, and combinations thereof that amount to going to a baseball game without a glove or a soccer game without cleets/shinguards. If you were in baseball and tried to walk around the bases instead of running, on anything save a homerune, then your team might actually beat you to death(this is hyperbole, I don't actually mean that). You can do it, sure(not really, ref and coaches probably wouldn't allow you), but it's pretty much ****ing retarded.
Comparing a random LOL pug to even a high school team is...not accurate. Even at that level, a high school team is a premade. Players are there because they want to win, and those with the drive and natural talent play first (They also have fun, its just a more serious, painful fun), and those that play "for fun" alone do too: on the JV team. I played sports through high school and college too, but a pug isn't that.

A pug is a game of mini golf with your friends. Everyone does what they want and some people keep score/actually try to do well. Don't get me wrong, I play champs I want to, but I also try to fill a niche that's needed on the team and I certainly try to do what it takes to win. I don't rage at my teammates because they're a random bunch of baloogas. Sometimes they're good and sometimes they suck so bad they make me want to punch them through the computer monitor, but you can't expect them to try as hard or want to win as much as you do. Not going to happen.

Premades are for that.


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AAARRRRGGGGGHHHH

Senior Member

07-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiderParadox View Post
More like "man, it's boring when every game I play feels exactly the same."
As though this doesn't happen when you play ****ty champs either.

The only difference is instead of winning nine times in a row you get stomped out nine times in a row.

Don't try to tell me playing disadvantaged is fun because I'm sure you're not celebrating whenever your games are 4v5.


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MilesMcStyles

Senior Member

07-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redenbacher View Post
With that attitude, you're absolutely right. You've already assumed the lost. You've given up. There is no way you, personally, will play to your best ability when you go in to a game with that mindset.

What you don't grasp, is that some people play their best when they're just having a good time. They can simply go in to a game thinking, "I'm going to play my best and have fun doing it," without the word 'win' popping in their head. That's just how some people are. Then you start raging about how they picked a champion you don't agree with, and they stop caring. They aren't having any fun any more and won't play to the best of their ability. For all you know, when that player is in the right state of mind, they could be the best ****ed Nidalee you've ever seen.

,..but you already ruined that chance, because you started the game off raging at your team.

GG.

Oh, and I forgot to mention the three other people on the team. They hate you now too. You're ruining their experience. Everyone's receptivity to teamwork shuts down as soon as one player start bad mouthing the team.

You're not seeing the point of this entire thread. It's not that these people aren't caring AFTER I rage at them. They're not caring ever, at all, whatsoever. Those kinds of people exist in the first place in the game, and no amount of concentration, mindset, confidence, or focus is going to help those people stop being 2-11 by the end of the game.

I have actually not said anything to people before during the queues and games. Sometimes I'm nice about giving people advice on how to beat the other team. Same result. They don't care, say it's just a game and get caught and killed in the jungle for the eighth time.

Also, don't act like a terrible player isn't also going to just get yelled at by me. I don't yell at entire teams, I yell at individuals. Pretty much all of the time, my teammates will see a terrible play from some baddo and ALSO call them out on it. I've seen this from every single level of play from every single kind of player, including tournament players.


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prodeje

Junior Member

07-18-2012

It feels like LOL is more of a soap opera then a game these days. I play for fun but at the same time, i want to win as well. Can't have the best of both worlds all the time. Sometimes, it may be me who could've done something better during the game to improve the odds of winning and the same thing can be said about my teammates but, I just worry about what I have to do for my role first before worrying about something else. If i don't win, i know at least i will have fun playing.


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

07-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesMcStyles View Post
You're not seeing the point of this entire thread. It's not that these people aren't caring AFTER I rage at them. They're not caring ever, at all, whatsoever. *snip*
So why rage?