"Simple" and "Easy" aren't the same thing

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Britishbubba

Senior Member

07-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by srkfx View Post
My friend laughed at me how he is among top 0.5% and i can't get to 1.5k.Then,he played on my PC once.Never again he made he mentioned our difference in ELO.

Moral of story? If i can get among 5(or 10?)% best with such handicaps,something is srsy wrong.
You are ranked 262,767 out of 308,271 on the solo 5v5 ladder.

That's the BOTTOM 15%. you are the 85th percentile of ranked players. That is top 5/10%... how? Every argument you put forward in this thread is just factually incorrect.

Just because you made it into a chunk of the ladder that is FILLED with people that are just absolutly horrible at this game, does not mean you've over come some giant obstacle. Playing with a horrible computer and making it to the 1300's isn't an achievement. You have to be REALLY REALLY bad at this game to not make it to the 1300's. Hit 2k+ and then you can say you mastered the game.


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JeryC

Senior Member

07-17-2012

if darius appeared in dota2, he'd be worshipped as a god, given carry status, gets all the kills, farm, and gold.

Come to LOL and darius is despised upon.

it's not about simple or easy on the games. it's the players being simple minded, aka 99% of lol players are just money paying morons.

That's the biggest difference.


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FlamingFrostbite

Senior Member

07-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Worst ofthe Best View Post
I disprove of how you imply that a DotA player won't be able to waltz into League and become platinum. You're omitting skill levels in an attempt to gain support for your argument. You basically have to do this in your case, however, because if you said a noob went in and couldn't get platinum, there's nothing to prove. But if you said a pro player went in and got Platinum in a week, then you would lose strength in your argument.

[Edited above]

So basically, why I dislike your statement:

If a noob from DotA walks into League, they'll be a noob at League.

If a decent player from DotA walks into League, they'll still be pretty decent at League.

If a pro from DotA walks into League, you better but your ****ing socks they'll be good at League (because it's a simpler game).
Of course a pro a DotA would be a pro at League they're pretty much the same game with a few difference here and there. However, you, like so many, are missing the point. LoL is simple to pick and play, not much getting in the way of you and a fun time. In DotA there is considerably more. However, a simple concept doesn't mean it is easy, look at simple things like play an instrument (to get away from all the analogies about other games) rather simple bang/blow/or rub your fingers over one part and press certain levers with others. Sure you'll make it function the way it is supposed to, but it wont sound very good.


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ReaperFan

Senior Member

07-17-2012

Super Meat Boy. You do 2 things. You run and you jump. Simple. Now play the game and tell me it's easy.

Plants vs. Zombies. You manage upwards of 20 different units and are forced to balance resource collection and unit placement along with unit deployment timing against and exponentially increasing swarm of advancing enemies with various mechanics specific to each enemy unit, forcing you to manage your many kinds of units, resource creeping, and timing appropriately to survive, with shifting environments causing forced shifts in previously understood mechanics. Complex. Now play it and tell me that it's hard.

These examples are not perfect. These examples are not meant to be compared to LoL or DotA in any way, shape, form, or fashion. These are merely meant to show the concept that having simple mechanics does not make a game easy, and having complex mechanics does not make a game hard. It's how these mechanics are applied that makes the game difficult or hard.


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MasterofSFL

Senior Member

07-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by srkfx View Post
Now which is more complex:

CS 1.6 with pistols only or CS 1.6 with all weapons?

In second you have decision making,in first you don't,thus second is harder.
Which doctor gets more $$$,one doing complex jobs on your body,or one making you prescriptions?


Don't make stupid analogies,comparing game that cater to casuals to one catering to hardcore.
So now instead of having various choices, you instead have a handful, the game has become simpler, but the skill cap and base actually may have increased. You have less ammo, your range is smaller, you can not spam your shots:so now they have to count every time.

Decision making is but a small part, you can have all the choices in the world but does it really matter if only 2 are going to work?

You do realize that some doctors are sought after for their expertise in their ability to diagnose, prescribe and treat a patient, right? Again, these doctors are not making money because "it's soooooo hard to be a doctor" it's because the hospitals that pay them want the Best they can get. Higher pay gives incentive to work for them.And again, going through all the training to become one who does surgery, or one who does diagnoses doesn't even mean they will get it anyway.

Also, to stop this whole "hardcore" nonsense, here's the deal. All games that pit a player, against another player, is competitive. Like it or not CS and CoD are both competitive games that have their own teams and fanbases. But either way, this "stupid" analogy still proves my point and still is a legitimate question.

Counter Strike, in all it's installations, is a much simpler game than the Call of Duty. Yet, while just about any one can play it, it's skill cap is in many ways much higher than CoDs because you focus more on the few mechanics it has instead of the Dozens that CoD implements.


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Irate Pirate

Senior Member

07-17-2012

Counter-strike in concept is the most simple fps game.

Look at how easy it is to play on esea.


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Vrouge

Senior Member

07-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frowny Cupcake View Post
LoL is simple to pick up, but hard to master. Take it as a lesson, DotA supremacists - it's the marking of a great game. Just making your game harder to pick up doesn't make it better.

Edit: Can you guys please refrain from flaming? Discussion is great, but try to keep away from insulting others. Thanks.
While I totally agree that difficulty in picking up has little factor in how good a game is... your argument of "Just making your game harder to pick up doesn't make it better" is moot when it's a given fact that Dota 2 offers more variety and choices when it comes to more unique feeling heroes with a larger array of different skillsets, more mechanics (and lots of lesser obvious ones at that which leads to more options), more item variety (half the items aren't just stat boosters but rather provide a useful ability attached).

Let me give you an example. Bruiser top/AP mid/Support + ranged AD bot/Jungler... sound familiar? Of course there are a couple of variations from time to time but this very combo will be in effect in most matches. And Dota? 2/1/2 or 2/1/1/1 or 2/2/1 or 1/2/2 or 1/1/1 + 2 roamers or junglers... all of these are quite common.

Graves? Caitlyn? Tristana? Miss Fortune? What do they all have in common? They all have some combination of a wave clearing ability/steroid/gap closer/CC and a high damage ultimate.

What core items do they all possess? Bloodthirster + Last Whisper + Infinity Edge + Phantom Dancer...

Medusa? Viper? Razor? Weaver? Clinkz? Lanaya? Huskar? Morphling? Invoker? What do they all have in common? Not much... apart from being Dota's equilavents to ranged AD carries. They all have at least 1 different component to them. Medusa relies on tanking up with her mana shield (with a high mana pool) and dishing out serious damage with her Split Shot (attacks 5 targets for 75% of base damage)!!! Viper relies on crippling the enemy's movement. Razor relies on draining the enemy's AD and converting that into bonus AD for himself. Weaver relies on his double-procs and radiance (sunfire cape) AoE burn. Clinkz relies on high burst with his attack speed steroid. Lanaya relies on high burst coupled with armor reduction. Huskar relies on stacking his burning spears damage-over-time and being at low health (as the lower his health the faster and more damage he puts out). Morphling relies on having 4 escape mechanisms which all grant bonus damage output of some sorts (one of his abilities can convert health into damage and damage back into health. An AD Invoker (yes it works) will rely on his Alacrity spell which grants bonus damage and attack speed as well as a load of utility.

What core items do they all possess? There's simply a lot more variation. Medusa relies on tankiness and huge damage through Split Shot [Linken's Sphere + Manta Style + Butterfly + (Divine Rapier)]. Viper generally gets a [Vanguard or Heart + Manta Style + Shadow Blade]. Razor builds [Vanguard + Butterfly]. Weaver builds [Linken's Sphere + Radiance + Monkey King Bar]. Clinkz builds [Orchid Malevolence + Monkey King Bar + Eye of Skadi]. Lanaya builds [Blink Dagger + Daedalus + Desolator]. Huskar gets [Armlet of Mordiggian + Heart of Tarrasque/Assault Cuirass + Satanic]. Morphling gets [Linken's Sphere + Manta Style + Ethereal Blade]. Invoker as an AD carry generally gets [Aghanim's Scepter + Assault Cuirass + Mjollnir].


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Tspuun

Senior Member

07-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Britishbubba View Post
1. I'm not wrong.
2. you make no sense because your sentences aren't even complete thoughts or cogently formed most of the time. It's hard to figure out what the **** you mean when your sentence isn't even a sentence.

So lets try this again. If AP != Ability power, what is it exactly?
He means that AP means that spells/skills actually scale after everyone's hit the level cap, unlike in DotA, where they don't. Since characters who rely on skills instead of autoattacks continue to scale, it's not just a matter of waiting out a team that has a powerful early game until they stop getting meaningfully stronger. I didn't really have any trouble getting that from his original post.



Anyway, more complexity doesn't mean difficulty when the person on the other end has to deal with the exact same mechanics. Maybe it's more difficult to pick up, but since the person on the other end has to jump through all the same hoops, it's not really objective difficulty like cranking up a single-player game to hard mode is.


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Frowny Cupcake

Senior Member

07-17-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrouge View Post
While I totally agree that difficulty in picking up has little factor in how good a game is... your argument of "Just making your game harder to pick up doesn't make it better" is moot when it's a given fact that Dota 2 offers more variety and choices when it comes to more unique feeling heroes with a larger array of different skillsets, more mechanics (and lots of lesser obvious ones at that which leads to more options), more item variety (half the items aren't just stat boosters but rather provide a useful ability attached).

Let me give you an example. Bruiser top/AP mid/Support + ranged AD bot/Jungler... sound familiar? Of course there are a couple of variations from time to time but this very combo will be in effect in most matches. And Dota? 2/1/2 or 2/1/1/1 or 2/2/1 or 1/2/2 or 1/1/1 + 2 roamers or junglers... all of these are quite common.

Graves? Caitlyn? Tristana? Miss Fortune? What do they all have in common? They all have some combination of a wave clearing ability/steroid/gap closer/CC and a high damage ultimate.

What core items do they all possess? Bloodthirster + Last Whisper + Infinity Edge + Phantom Dancer...

Medusa? Viper? Razor? Weaver? Clinkz? Lanaya? Huskar? Morphling? Invoker? What do they all have in common? Not much... apart from being Dota's equilavents to ranged AD carries. They all have at least 1 different component to them. Medusa relies on tanking up with her mana shield (with a high mana pool) and dishing out serious damage with her Split Shot (attacks 5 targets for 75% of base damage)!!! Viper relies on crippling the enemy's movement. Razor relies on draining the enemy's AD and converting that into bonus AD for himself. Weaver relies on his double-procs and radiance (sunfire cape) AoE burn. Clinkz relies on high burst with his attack speed steroid. Lanaya relies on high burst coupled with armor reduction. Huskar relies on stacking his burning spears damage-over-time and being at low health (as the lower his health the faster and more damage he puts out). Morphling relies on having 4 escape mechanisms which all grant bonus damage output of some sorts (one of his abilities can convert health into damage and damage back into health. An AD Invoker (yes it works) will rely on his Alacrity spell which grants bonus damage and attack speed as well as a load of utility.

What core items do they all possess? There's simply a lot more variation. Medusa relies on tankiness and huge damage through Split Shot [Linken's Sphere + Manta Style + Butterfly + (Divine Rapier)]. Viper generally gets a [Vanguard or Heart + Manta Style + Shadow Blade]. Razor builds [Vanguard + Butterfly]. Weaver builds [Linken's Sphere + Radiance + Monkey King Bar]. Clinkz builds [Orchid Malevolence + Monkey King Bar + Eye of Skadi]. Lanaya builds [Blink Dagger + Daedalus + Desolator]. Huskar gets [Armlet of Mordiggian + Heart of Tarrasque/Assault Cuirass + Satanic]. Morphling gets [Linken's Sphere + Manta Style + Ethereal Blade]. Invoker as an AD carry generally gets [Aghanim's Scepter + Assault Cuirass + Mjollnir].
What this guy said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tspuun View Post
Anyway, more complexity doesn't mean difficulty when the person on the other end has to deal with the exact same mechanics. Maybe it's more difficult to pick up, but since the person on the other end has to jump through all the same hoops, it's not really objective difficulty like cranking up a single-player game to hard mode is.


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BohemianParody

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Senior Member

07-17-2012

The funny thing is that my thread got closed while this is left untouched.