League of Lessons: Exchanging ---> Video TWO of a series of 30-90s LoL tutorials!

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Predinchuk

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Senior Member

07-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDjinni View Post
Then start with a basic introduction like you've been doing for these videos, then move onto the essentials. Save the advanced stuff for another video if you want.
Look, I'm not trying to be confrontational here, but you just told me literally exactly what I'm already doing. You just told a sitting dog to sit :S

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDjinni View Post
I don't look at video length when I'm watching videos. If the title and introductory picture aren't something that interests me, I'd typically not even click the link. Then, if the first minute or so is something that doesn't interest me, then I won't continue watching.

If a person is genuinely interested in learning how to play a particular game, even the fundamentals, and your video helps them with this, they will watch your video no matter its length. People buy 4 hour instructional "How to play Texas Hold'em" videos, I'm sure a free 10 minute video is far more likely to be well received. After all, a game of League of Legends can take more than an hour to play, so whoever is watching your video should have plenty of time on their hands.

I don't think I've ever heard of someone who sees a 10 minute video and just decides to close it right then and there without watching any of it. If they don't have 10 minutes right now they can pause it and watch it later.
Haha, according to reddit and the Wadsworth constant, every YouTube user ever will skip through a video if it's longer than a minute or two, and most don't watch the whole thing. I know that if I'm in a Skype call or on Vent/Mumble/Teamspeak (as most League of Legends players are) and somebody links a video, I don't even think about watching it if it's over a minute or two long. I must be the only person on the internet who doesn't watch Youtube videos simply because they're too long. Although I agree that a genuinely interesting video is worth watching, I know from experience that tutorial videos aren't always the most interesting thing and I'd prefer short and sweet.

Being a science student, I spend most of my time reading and summarizing data such that people can understand it quickly. When I do a "science fair" poster, endless paragraphs of text are discouraged and shorter, more succinct explanations are favoured.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDjinni View Post
If you stick your 60 second video in the front of a longer 10 minute video, then you've fundamentally accomplished the same thing:

1) People who would only stick around for 60 seconds and then tune out or close the video can get the same experience as if they watched your current videos.
2) People who are interested in learning more can do so thanks to the fact that you actually go into some detail.
3) People who would skip a 10 minute video entirely as soon as they saw the length probably aren't that interested in learning the complexity of League of Legends to begin with and your 60 second introduction to topics probably won't change that.
So then 90% of my content is never seen? Why not just make 10 separate high quality videos that are sixty seconds each? If you've ever taken a basic university/college English course, you'd know that it's VERY easy to write content, but to refine something into an executive summary is extremely difficult. What I'm trying to say is that summaries are a thing for a reason; people are impatient, ESPECIALLY gamers (myself included).

Again, at this point in time, I'm catering to the "leveling" and non-ranked demographic (levels 1-30 and virgin in ranked games) of players in an effort to soften the learning curve that League of Legends imposes upon early players. These videos are not currently tailored to be "how to gain Elo if you're stuck at 1300" videos, as the advice to be offered for those kinds of situations can be very diverse and not something I'll be getting into until I've established a solid foundation. Essentially, think of my channel as a growing LoL player. First, I'll be showing the basics of everything that I can think of that a player may need to begin playing effectively. Then, I'll get into more advanced or abstract tactics that may be useful in entry level ranked. Finally, if I ever get this far, I hope to delve into highly advanced game play mechanics, perhaps champion/role specific, but who knows.

I'm not trying to be condescending, but I REALLY don't think you have the mindset of an educator with this whole "make the videos longer and more detailed" approach. If you still don't understand my vision, re-read Kevimaster's post regarding playing the trumpet. I think he really hits the nail on the head with his metaphor.


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TheDjinni

Senior Member

07-20-2012

All I'm saying is, you can keep the 60 second introductory videos but immediately follow them with a second video that has some details, so that people can actually learn something from this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Predinchuk View Post
Look, I'm not trying to be confrontational here, but you just told me literally exactly what I'm already doing. You just told a sitting dog to sit :S
No, I asked you to explain the essentials after offering an introduction. Your 60 minute videos are merely an introduction to a topic in question that do almost nothing to delve into even the barest essentials.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Predinchuk View Post
Being a science student, I spend most of my time reading and summarizing data such that people can understand it quickly. When I do a "science fair" poster, endless paragraphs of text are discouraged and shorter, more succinct explanations are favoured.
You don't want to be skipping on details for the sake of brevity when you want to help people learn. Informing people of the who, what, when, where, why is appropriate for a science fair poster, because the purpose of the poster is to catch their eye and interest, and you're there to provide the details in person to any question they ask. Things are completely different when you're attempting to provide an educational tool that has to stand on its own merits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Predinchuk View Post
So then 90% of my content is never seen? Why not just make 10 separate high quality videos that are sixty seconds each?
You can make ten 60 second videos, but it would serve no purpose other than to make the lessons incredibly disjointed. Either the topics are different enough that you aren't delving into enough detail to actually accomplish anything, or the topics are similar enough that it's a jarring and disjointed experience to have to reopen a new video to continue learning about the same topic.

What you could do is stick them all in a single youtube playlist and put it on auto-play, but what you're doing there is just tricking the viewer into thinking the video is shorter than it is, which (of course) may be your only goal here, but based on what you've made so far I doubt that's where you're going with this.

You ask why you should make a 10 minute video instead of a 60 second one even if people are likely to skip over most of the 10 minute video. The answer is simple: to teach the people who are interested in learning. If most people simply aren't interested in watching the rest of your video after you've given them the best 60 second summary of it you've ever written, you really can't do anything about it. Conversely, if a few people are interested in the details, you can do something about it: provide details. Simply cutting out the details entirely because some people aren't interested in them serves no purpose but to annoy the people who were looking for details. It's like closing an ice cream shop entirely because you're worried you might run out of ice cream before you serve every potential customer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Predinchuk View Post
If you've ever taken a basic university/college English course, you'd know that it's VERY easy to write content, but to refine something into an executive summary is extremely difficult. What I'm trying to say is that summaries are a thing for a reason; people are impatient, ESPECIALLY gamers (myself included).
You can only summarize what you have actually done. Take, for example, the very first paragraph of this response: that's an effective executive summary of my post. If it was the only thing I wrote, it wouldn't be an executive summary anymore; it'd just be my entire post, and would be incredibly uneducational. Spending only 60 seconds on a topic is not the metaphorical equivalent to writing a half-a-paragraph executive summary for a detailed, multi-page report. It is the equivalent of writing a report that is a half a paragraph long.

See, if these 60 second videos were an actual introduction to a larger video, you could call them an "executive summary". They aren't. The purpose of an executive summary is twofold:

1) For people who are interested in reading the full report, the executive summary provides an introduction/summary to start and simplified analysis that they can fall back on if the report ever confuses them.
2) For people who are not interested in reading the full report, the executive summary gives them enough information to know that they want to skip it as well as an idea of what it is about in case they need to come back to it later.

Your sixty second video fundamentally only caters to the second group: people who aren't interested in learning much about League of Legends but don't know it yet. You can't possibly cater to the first group (people who are interested in learning more) because you haven't provided the "more" part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Predinchuk View Post
Again, at this point in time, I'm catering to the "leveling" and non-ranked demographic (levels 1-30 and virgin in ranked games) of players in an effort to soften the learning curve that League of Legends imposes upon early players. These videos are not currently tailored to be "how to gain Elo if you're stuck at 1300" videos, as the advice to be offered for those kinds of situations can be very diverse and not something I'll be getting into until I've established a solid foundation.
Like I said, these 60 second videos cater to people who aren't interested in learning anything about League of Legends, because they don't provide any details. They tell a person just enough about a topic for them to decide whether the time investment they need to make to improve at League of Legends is worthwhile or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Predinchuk View Post
Essentially, think of my channel as a growing LoL player. First, I'll be showing the basics of everything that I can think of that a player may need to begin playing effectively. Then, I'll get into more advanced or abstract tactics that may be useful in entry level ranked. Finally, if I ever get this far, I hope to delve into highly advanced game play mechanics, perhaps champion/role specific, but who knows.
You may have intended to do something like "Basic -> Intermediate -> Advanced" but a 60 second introduction doesn't fall into any of those categories, it's just a 60 second introduction. That was my point when I made the first statement I made: your videos don't even count as "Basic" Lessons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Predinchuk View Post
I'm not trying to be condescending, but I REALLY don't think you have the mindset of an educator with this whole "make the videos longer and more detailed" approach. If you still don't understand my vision, re-read Kevimaster's post regarding playing the trumpet. I think he really hits the nail on the head with his metaphor.
There's your problem. The word "educator" or "teacher" implies that you can influence how much or how well your client learns. Beyond communicating the information they wish to learn clearly and concisely, you really can't. You can make the best video ever and someone who is simply not interested in learning anything won't get anything out of it. You don't solve this problem by making a video that gives them less information; it's not a problem that is within your power to solve.

The person who decides whether or not they are going to learn anything is the learner themselves. There are no educators, only learners and the people they learn from. There's a reason why something like wikipedia is infinitely more useful to someone than sitting through a lecture. The only thing you can do is be a resource, you can't make people learn more by intentionally providing less details (logically, that's absurd on its face anyhow).


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Predinchuk

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Senior Member

07-20-2012

TheDjinni, I don't mean any disrespect, but I'm clearly not getting through to you here.

I appreciate the criticisms as they are valid, but I honestly and truly believe that summarizing a five-ten minute video into sixty seconds is much more powerful than letting the video drag on and become dull.

You don't have to tell me that a sixty-second video isn't going to make a player an expert in lane; I know that. Like I said, I'm attempting to take non-players and give them short, yet potent, bits of advice as to let them figure out the intricacies. This will provide a solid foundation so that the various goals of League of Legends can be reached through their own choices.

I think you're simply putting yourself above your beginnings. I don't think you remember how terrible your first MOBA game was; I sure do. I'm simply attempting to reduce the stress of ignorance and remind new players of the goals of the game. To assume that I should be building a player from the ground up to play like a 2k player after watching a few hours of videos without ever playing a game is absolutely insane. That's like saying you could be an Olympic swimmer because you've watched and read thousands of hours of materials on swimming, despite never being in a body of water larger than a bath tub. Do you think best players in the world didn't have to learn some things themselves? You bet they did. They likely had a tutorial, guide, or friend give them a few basic tips, and from there they had to innovate and figure out how to play the game in such a way that they were the best. Everyone starts somewhere, but everyone has a different endpoint based on their ambitions.

TL;DR: Give the average LoL player some credit.


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