Katarina: STOP rushing Rylai's Crystal Sceptre...

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kavinh the third

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Senior Member

07-18-2012

cause gunblade's an overpriced and semi useless item on kat i build rylias on kat cause it gives her a perma slow if u went with gunblade u only have 1 slow and while u have higher damage if u can't kill them they'll just easily escape u can't pin them down or anything. with rylias however u can perma slow an enemy by chaining ur e and q which doesn't only help in team fights but when ur escaping. not to mention the 500hp bonus is way more useful then the spellvamp from gunblade and it actually lets u trade harass with kat's already enormous base damage. i honestly fail to see why on earth anyone would rush gunblade spell vamp and damage is nice but gives u 0 survivability no kiting potential outside of the first 3 seconds and doesn't help your team in anyway.

First off kat's got high damage and low survivability once she jumps into a fight if u built her with a gunblade u become little more then a kser in a team fight cause u'll end up being focused down or at least cced which gives u little room to harass with rylias on the otherhand kat easily gets a nice 40%+ hp around the time u buy it and allows u to help ur team by perma slowing the enemy.


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kavinh the third

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Senior Member

07-18-2012

here i'll do the math for you for damage this is assuming u go for both routes and assuming ur dealing damage to a single target or at best 2.
mention gunblade costs 520 more gold then rylias.
70ap+40 ad and a 300 single target nuke/slow vs perma slow, 80 ap and 500hp and say with the spare gold u purchase an amplifing tomb for an extra 20 ap and a ward. In the end all u lose is a minor damage increase in exchange for being able to sustain more hits and slow enemies almost permanently. The life steal is useless cause u'll never auto attack with a kat to heal life back unless ur going ad kat.
Here i'll do the math for u

q .8ad ratio+.35ap therefore 32+24.5= 56.5 damage inc from gunblade/35 damage from rylias
e .75 ap ratio therefore 52.5 damage from gunblade/ 75 from rylias
r. .5ad + .25 ap. therefore 20+ 17.5= 37.5 if it hits for the full duration this is multipled to 10x for 375 damage increase. Rylias gets a 250 damage increase at maximum.
and u have a 300 nuke.

Now assuming u do land all of these overall u gain 21.5 damage from dagger lose 22.5 from ur e and gain 125 from ur ult assuming they all hit for the entire duration along with ur 300 nuke this means assuming ur doing true damage and no one moves and stays in range of ur ultimate for the entire duration u deal a total of 424 damage which isn't much considering u can't continue kiting them after they run away due to no longer having a slow and it being nearly impossible to deal that damage to the enemy for the entire duration.

ur spell vamp applies to ur e normally but to the q and r they're considered aoe spells so the healing is reduced to a fraction down to 1/3. Again assuming ur dealing true damage which ur most likely not u'll heal 60 from ur activation proc.

This means if u wanted to heal back 500hp u'd need to deal enough damage from ur ult and q to equal 7500 damage from ur ultimate/q or 2500 from ur e which makes it nearly impossible to heal back to be worth 500 hp this is again assuming ur dealing true damage


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Noxian Mercenary

Senior Member

07-18-2012

kavinh..can you seriously go take a Typing 101 class? You wasted your entire time doing math when nobody can understand jack ****.

Secondly - enemies don't simply "escape" from a Gunblade active. They either die a slow and painful death, or they use an escape ability or flash. Should you have not the brains to wait until these abilities are used, then yes, you do not deserve the kill.


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Ur little sister

Senior Member

07-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by kavinh the third View Post
here i'll do the math for you for damage this is assuming u go for both routes and assuming ur dealing damage to a single target or at best 2.
mention gunblade costs 520 more gold then rylias.
70ap+40 ad and a 300 single target nuke/slow vs perma slow, 80 ap and 500hp and say with the spare gold u purchase an amplifing tomb for an extra 20 ap and a ward. In the end all u lose is a minor damage increase in exchange for being able to sustain more hits and slow enemies almost permanently. The life steal is useless cause u'll never auto attack with a kat to heal life back unless ur going ad kat.
Here i'll do the math for u

q .8ad ratio+.35ap therefore 32+24.5= 56.5 damage inc from gunblade/35 damage from rylias
e .75 ap ratio therefore 52.5 damage from gunblade/ 75 from rylias
r. .5ad + .25 ap. therefore 20+ 17.5= 37.5 if it hits for the full duration this is multipled to 10x for 375 damage increase. Rylias gets a 250 damage increase at maximum.
and u have a 300 nuke.

Now assuming u do land all of these overall u gain 21.5 damage from dagger lose 22.5 from ur e and gain 125 from ur ult assuming they all hit for the entire duration along with ur 300 nuke this means assuming ur doing true damage and no one moves and stays in range of ur ultimate for the entire duration u deal a total of 424 damage which isn't much considering u can't continue kiting them after they run away due to no longer having a slow and it being nearly impossible to deal that damage to the enemy for the entire duration.

ur spell vamp applies to ur e normally but to the q and r they're considered aoe spells so the healing is reduced to a fraction down to 1/3. Again assuming ur dealing true damage which ur most likely not u'll heal 60 from ur activation proc.

This means if u wanted to heal back 500hp u'd need to deal enough damage from ur ult and q to equal 7500 damage from ur ultimate/q or 2500 from ur e which makes it nearly impossible to heal back to be worth 500 hp this is again assuming ur dealing true damage
1) I think you forgot to take into account that Q is an AoE spell (it hits multiple ennemies) and every individual bounce is calculated as a single target spell in your spellvamp calculation
2) Math on the damage increase on page 1. I did the same thing but added the numbers up. Burst is huge.
3) If you need the survivabiliity that bad, getting Giant's Belt and then just building Gunblade is still more cost-effective than finishing Rylai
4) permaslow is useless. it's a 35% slow for half the time and a 15% one for the other half during your kill combo, so you'll even be losing out on slowing during the ult.


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Lasie

Senior Member

07-19-2012

so for the record I agree that rylies is not the best starting item but I am not sure the gunblade is the *best* start either. when I play kat I start hexteck revolver into deathfires grasp then wota. I have reconsidered wota due to this discussion but I think deathfires active may put the gunblade to shame.


just a thought


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Mensidiaverne

Senior Member

07-20-2012

Reading this thread has made me realize how poor some people are at spelling.

It is Rylai's. Not Rayleigh, Rylie, Rylias, hot ****.


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Ur little sister

Senior Member

07-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lasie View Post
so for the record I agree that rylies is not the best starting item but I am not sure the gunblade is the *best* start either. when I play kat I start hexteck revolver into deathfires grasp then wota. I have reconsidered wota due to this discussion but I think deathfires active may put the gunblade to shame.


just a thought
I believe Gunblade --> DFG is one of TiensiNoAkuma's favorite build routes. Getting both is definately viable.

Now if you're choosing which one to get first, some thoughts:
- Spellvamp is insane on Kat. Manaless, and her Q bounces count for individual single target spells I believe. So like you said, I'd definately get the revolver.
- The reason you consider it is the active right? You're dealing 25% of current health in damage (minimum 200) with DFG, 300 flat damage with Gunblade. Early to midgame, these numbers should be comparable. The total burst damage you deal should be relatively equivalent too if I'm not mistaking. However, Gunblade does offer you more sustained damage due to AD scalings.

I believe it's worth trying. I must say I haven't tried it out myself. The suggestion you're making is not "wrong" in any way, I can believe it to be a matter of taste / situational. Your understanding DOES show an understanding of Katarina.

I'd personally try to definately evaluate how high health my opponents are numerically when they allow themselves to be bursted down. That number obviously 'll vary greatly from champion to champion. Anything below 1200 HP and Gunblade > DFG in every way except casting range. If they allow themselves to be nuked down from significantly higher healths early, then getting DFG before gunblade would be a great idea.

The combination of both items is very strong offensive setup. The only drawback it really has is that you're juggling a lot of activatables, which might become difficult.


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Summoner LMAO

Member

07-20-2012

I play Kata 2 or 3 times in a month since i bought her, Amazing!
Going Kata in blind pick is suicide...Jax, Alistair, Xin, Ashe`s ultimate ..u are useless.
I try to maximize her damage, first Gunblade, Abyssal Schepter, Rabadons...
Ofc, all games are different so maybe u need to build her tanky (Rylai`s, Warmog`s..etc)
I builded her in weird ways..depend of the game and enemies. You cant standard build her. Boots? Magic Penetration or Magic Resist whit +35 tenacity?
I guess is more important than a strong build....know the right moment to use skills, wait the right moment, watch enemies when they use skills and jump.


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UnderWaterHobo

Junior Member

01-05-2014

Well i have played kat as my main for a long time actually the first champ I got a penta kill on and i don't rush either of those items I go with haunting guise and don't upgrade it till its the last item but rylias offers ALOT of utility and i don't understand why you would ever get will on kat so thats my opinion on this matter


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AlethiaArete

Senior Member

01-05-2014

I agree with some of the others here... I dropped the Gunblade off my list a long time ago and I only get Rylai's if I need HP. But then I also useually go to large efforts to be the fastests champ on the playing field, so if I was slower I would probably appreciate the slow better.

Typically I will go with a Hextech Revolver or Zhonya's first.