How often does Jungling work for your team?

I have never lost a match with a Jungler on my team, ever! 7 8.24%
It works fairly well, I mean we lose a few matches, but we do better than a 2 1 2 lineup.. 69 81.18%
Very rarely have I ever seen a Jungler do anything useful but feed the other team. 6 7.06%
OMFG I HATE when we have a jungler, we lose almost every time because of them. 3 3.53%
Voters: 85. You may not vote on this poll

Jungling instead of 2 1 2

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Gamerphate

Junior Member

07-07-2012

Now this maybe perhaps due to the factor that mostly I have 2 or 3 people that I can gather from my friends list to make a match. However, ever single time someone calls jungle, it is an automatic fail. Let me make my case and point. If you do 1 1 2 (since one is in the jungle) you can make progress on the middle turret, and the bot turret, but you know the top turret is going to be taking some damage. It is almost always the first to fall, and if the person on top dies in a 2 v 1, now they get free time to whack the turret down a good ways even in the early stages of a game.

This is all fine and dandy, and I know from experience that you can come back from a lost turret, or all lost turrets with an epic ace, my point is this. Once a lane loses a turret, the common strategy is to then shift focus, so now you have 2 or 3 in middle which means that turret is next, and of course they could do bot first with 4 on 2. In any of these cases, the odds are greatly stacked against the people defending these turrets, and more than likely that turret is going down soon. Once the Outer Turrets are down, it is just a shuffle to do it again, although more often than not, people seem to want to push mid the most and so now you are defending the inside base turrets.

Now is the time for backdoor solo pushes to form so you have 4 people in the middle trying to push into your base, and you have one guy off to the side pushing the side lines up. This is not always the case, but more often than not that is how it is done. But as you can see, if you leave a vulnerability such as an under staffed turret, and the other team takes advantage of it like mentioned above, you are going to be fighting up hill the whole match.

So now lets get to what the real issue here is. So you have a jungler out there, killing those NPC mobs that for xp, instead of helping the lanes with the bots coming up against your turret. Ok fine, they need to get some xp while they are waiting around. But more often than not, you find that they are busy killing a buff mob while your team streams past them in a team fight where all they needed was an equal number of combatants on each side to win. Instead, you see 3 guys get ganked by 4 or maybe 5, while the jungler is sitting there killing the dragon. You team dies, then the jungler dies, now the other team with an ace up their sleeve are pushing down what ever turrets you have left and getting ready for a final push, or if this has already happened they take the free time to go get the baron.

Now I understand now all junglers will ignore your team when you need help, instead of just focusing on the jungle mobs. But more than likely they are busy killing a mob in the jungle while your team is some sort of team fight where they would of made a difference. But lets compound the issue here shall we? Let's say you are doing well on the bottom, which should be the case as it is the only lane with an equal number of players and a team mate to back them up with abilities or getaways. You have a guy almost dead, you are starving for the kill and totally have it, and out of the jungle a guy runs and gets the last hit stealing your kill. And to add insult to injury, even though the other team is now dead and you could all push the turret and move up, they dash off into the darkness off to steal more kills.

Now before we get into a debate about kill stealing, I actually don't mind getting assists. I think an assist means more as it means team work was done for the death to happen. It is just that if all they did was get one hit and you totally had them, that is a bit silly to say the least. And the aforementioned lack of help after the free gank they got with helping you smash the turret is just insult to injury. But of course this is not to discount the actually decent junglers that do help with the escape guys running away that you need them to finish, that is helpful. Most of the time you ping and maybe even type a fast "need help bot or top" and instead you find them off doing their own little jungle adventure elsewhere on the map killing NPCs that have no buffs.

So to try to sum all this up into a Cliff Notes recap, Jungling rarely works in pickup matches. This is not to say that there are not good junglers. But 9 out of 10 times I get an MIA jungler that shows up, I was ready for them and knew they were coming cause of sightwards or watching the map. They rarely get to be useful in any form where the time they spent in the jungle was more productive to the teams progress than pushing against a turret or keeping your turrets in pristine shape.

And here is the worst part of the whole thing. So you start to pick which Champ you want to be and one guy calls jungle. You suggest you would rather he not do that, and they always say "naww I'm good at it" and the more they hype up their jungle skills the worse they are at it. And I always then inform them if top turret falls it is their fault. Which they reply naw that is on the one guy top fighting two people at once, yeah like they are never going to die. Plus one guy soloing top is WHEN a jungler is useful, because now you can throw 3 people at him with a side gank and then bam, turret is dead. I am not saying I haven't won a match with someone that jungles on my team, but out of the 200 odd wins I have so far, I don't really remember winning when someone called jungle, it might of happened once or twice, but every other time it was a fail.

And the kicker to the whole thing is, since the jungler is likely just picking up the easy last hit kills on mobs that other team member could of got, by the end of the match, they had a high K/D ratio, where as the people they stole the kill from just have high assists. And so when you lose (after the first turret starts falling is the warning sign of bad times ahead) you remind them that you predicted it would happen. Then the trash talk begins from them about how your high assists don't count even though you have a positive K/D ratio as well. I think the core of this is that these people don't care if you win at all, they just want to get kills and to hell with the team if they lose, it is their fault of course, cause you know they are so awesome and all that. And there is rarely a game of LoL where the trash talk doesn't make an appearance. But it is all down hill at this point, cause you have a mouthy 12 year old that thinks he is the best LoL player in the world, and they did nothing to contribute to the loss of the match, which as I stated above is completely not true.

And in closing to attempt to deter the trolls and flamers, yes I know there are good junglers, and it can be a good strategy, I am just saying, every time I have play a 2 1 2 and the team doesn't early feed, we win, hands down. Just playing conservatively and not greedily wins the matches. I had one game yesterday where it was like my 4th time to play Karth and I was something like 9K 0D 13A, and one team mate is *****ing at me that I didn't die more. He seriously said that I was playing too carefully, and this wasn't like I was just hiding in the base, I was on the front lines more than he was. I just knew when I got agro or what Champ was about to try a stun/slow or something and made sure to not get killed. I guess everyone wants to point a finger at another team mate when things go wrong. But you can't plan how each fight is going to turn out, but you can plan to either go jungle or not go jungle. And I pretty much exit the pre game when someone calls jungle and wait the 5 minutes out, saves me 30 minutes of wasted game that could of been entertaining. It feels too much like a match where it is 4v5 and you got an AFK lvl 1 sitting in the base.

So if you are pro jungler, good for you, I don't need your responses, I know that you like jungling and MAYBE it works for you sometimes, cause you know you are the best LoL player in the world, cause you were in the Finals and all that. But unless a real pro (read you went to the official play offs) wants to respond with a legitimate response, I don't care to hear from the Jungle kiddies that want to say OMG STFU Jungle is awesome, I don't care what you think is great, go back to your Justin Beiber Dubstep. Although if you too have had problems with that one guy that wants to Leeeeeroy Jenkins it up in the jungle, PLEASE do post here, I would like to see your responses of your stories.


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Punched

Member

07-07-2012

Wall of text, and grammar. Read most though. My thought on this is, if you are low level- go for a 212. Having a jungler is just better. Main reason being the ganks. A team w/o a jungler will not have many (if at all ganks) meaning you can push all you want, a team with a jungler can gank the map and have control of most lanes (not letting them push too far). Theres also the buffs, top lane gets more xp if passive, and the fact that the enemy team needs to ward, or face a certain death.

Jungler in higher level gameplay is a must, but is not needed for lower level play.


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FragiIe

Junior Member

07-07-2012

The reason why you have a jungler is so that top lane can have all the exp to himself. This actually goes into why the meta is the way it is. AP carries get mid lane because they benefit from the extra levels the most while bottom lane consists of the AD carry and support because the support is usually the one carrying the wards (normals and pink) and have the time to ward dragon. The top lane usually goes to a character that can soak damage really well and in order to do so they must be able to farm by themselves to gain the levels needed and gold as well for their items. If you were to send two players to the top lane then it would just mean that either one player gets most of the farm and the other falls off later in the game due to lack of gold to keep up or both players split the farm and both fall off later in the game.

You can make the same argument for support that they fall off due to lack of gold and items but the reason why certain classes are even good at support is not just because of sustain or CC but because of their skills. Most good support class skills do not require items to be effective.

So you have 5 players. The middle lane is taken by the AP carry and the bottom and top lane are taken by tank characters / AD carry and support. Where does the fifth player go?

You can make the argument that you can simply stick another support class for top lane but you need someone to control the buffs but then all of a sudden you've lost a way to secure important objectives such as dragon and baron. You've also lost a way to help relieve pressure on other lanes if they're being pushed to their turret. Top lane can't leave because that turns into a 2v1 and bottom lane can't leave either. Mid lane would have to wait until the minions get pushed but oh wait, what if mid is being pushed all the way to their turret too? Having a jungler simply relieves the pressure off of lanes because the enemy will fear being ganked if they over extend. If both sides have a jungler, it just makes everything a lot easier because now the buffs are secure and you are able to hand them off to the appropriate champs and there's someone watching over dragon, baron and whatnot.

I'm not an expert on this stuff but this is just what I've picked up from playing the game!


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Boondoxxed

Member

07-07-2012

you're silly man. you almost make a valid point, but there are so many variables that you totally failed to account for. say you're bot lane, they picked a nice combo early and you have a midgame strong combo. they rape you early, but you have no jungler, they do. their jungler comes to gank you, sitting at the same level as you are. you could send one top lane down, but then you leave top lane in a 1v1 situation with an enemy that is now higher level because you split a lanes xp between two. what did that gain you?

point being, the jungle is a free pool of xp which almost literally translates to more pushing power, which is the point of the game. it contains a steady source of easily gained xp, leaving two lanes to soak up all a lanes potential xp to themselves, as opposed to one. when you run no jungler, you leave one champion on the map soaking up that xp, which is the simplest terms of it all, makes you weaker in the midgame. on top of that, you allow a champion on their team essentially free access to your jungle, which as i said is a pool of basically pushing power/killing power. even if you ward and try to gank when they take your buffs you're leaving a lane exposed to the enemy left either equal or more powerful than you.

another point being that you're starving yourself early of very powerful buffs. sure you can kill them midgame, again leaving a lane exposed to your enemies for a time, but additionally, you now have no smite on your team (i won't even explain why smite is silliness for a laner) for dragons and barons and buff fights. but your mid will probably get smashed vs another mid with blue, their jungler will wreak havok on your bot and top lanes because their bot will have help from an equally strong ally, or their top will be a higher level than both your tops.

now mind you, all this is subject to team comp choice and skill levels of players. but it's nearly always going to be true. on the surface, having 2 1 2 seems as though it would increase your turret defense and pushing power, but really, when you get down into the nitty gritty of it, running a 2 1 2 will leave you at a disadvantage in the midgame, which is essentially what's going to decide the victor in the late game. but that's the true beauty of this game, is there are so many variables to each and every game you play, each metagame you try to run, each team comp that you come into contact with. and so really, it's impossible to say which is truly better, because any argument you make can be countered by some other strategy, which is then countered by another strategy. it's like a complicated and complex game of rock paper scissors.

but at the end of the day, as long as you have a decent comp, and a competent jungler and laners playing your comp, a jungle team will have a decently significant advantage because fundamentally you have more team members sitting at higher xp than the enemy. when you have that, you have the ability to gain a game advantage.



TL;DR jungling is better, and you're retarded for thinking that massive amount of free xp, gold, and buffs(essentially power over your enemy) should sit there while their enemy solo lanes can easily gain a level advantage over your two duo lanes, and a jungler has the ability to take your power for themselves, and use it against your already weakened lanes.


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Gamerphate

Junior Member

07-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzlyAnimal View Post
Wall of text, and grammar. Read most though. My thought on this is, if you are low level- go for a 212. Having a jungler is just better. Main reason being the ganks. A team w/o a jungler will not have many (if at all ganks) meaning you can push all you want, a team with a jungler can gank the map and have control of most lanes (not letting them push too far). Theres also the buffs, top lane gets more xp if passive, and the fact that the enemy team needs to ward, or face a certain death.

Jungler in higher level gameplay is a must, but is not needed for lower level play.
We have Level 30s on the whole team, and same outcome. So I still disagree, but you are entitled to your opinion. I am not saying that when a GOOD jungler does his job you can't have benefits. I am saying that 9 out of 10 times if you have a pickup match, your jungler is going to fail the game for you because of the reasons stated above all the while claiming they are the best jungler in the world while their actions and K/D/A ratio speaks otherwise.

EDIT - Yeah those are called paragraphs. I had to explain as much of the situation as possible, so that it wasn't just one paragraph that could be easily be picked apart. Also Trolls are lazy, so they are less likely to actually read something that has a valid argument, so they move on to the next post.


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Ozaryk

Senior Member

07-07-2012

Having a Jungler is better, but if the Jungler just jungles and doesn't make any effort to assist your team early on, your team will most certainly lose. Can't tell you how many times I've come across a Jungler on my team that wouldn't leave the jungle until after the 5 minute mark, and by then, the solo top, or solo bot, whichever way we had it, has generally fed the enemy team at least a few times, or we lost a turret.

I couldn't choose an option on the poll because the way I see it just isn't there... It would be mostly a combination of options 2, 3 and 4, but most of it would be based on the lack of teamwork/assistance the Jungler sometimes shows.


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Gamerphate

Junior Member

07-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozarot View Post
Having a Jungler is better, but if the Jungler just jungles and doesn't make any effort to assist your team early on, your team will most certainly lose. Can't tell you how many times I've come across a Jungler on my team that wouldn't leave the jungle until after the 5 minute mark, and by then, the solo top, or solo bot, whichever way we had it, has generally fed the enemy team at least a few times, or we lost a turret.

I couldn't choose an option on the poll because the way I see it just isn't there... It would be mostly a combination of options 2, 3 and 4, but most of it would be based on the lack of teamwork/assistance the Jungler sometimes shows.
This is pretty much my point, I am not saying Jungling is always a bad thing, it can be handy. But my experience is when some guy calls jungle, he is only interested in killing the mobs in the jungle and never shows up to help the team. And losing a turret just so one guy can get extra food and steal some ganks away from the other team members only so their personal K/D for the match can be high, so after the match when you lose, they can say "Oh I am the best" and you really lost due to their cocky selfish nature.


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Vizzlepeez

Senior Member

07-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamerphate View Post
This is pretty much my point, I am not saying Jungling is always a bad thing, it can be handy. But my experience is when some guy calls jungle, he is only interested in killing the mobs in the jungle and never shows up to help the team. And losing a turret just so one guy can get extra food and steal some ganks away from the other team members only so their personal K/D for the match can be high, so after the match when you lose, they can say "Oh I am the best" and you really lost due to their cocky selfish nature.
U have 181 normal wins and don't play ranked. My point is u don't have much experience


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khila

Senior Member

07-07-2012

if i ever get a jungler on my team i just play vlad and take top he can 2 v1 pretty effectivly as he can out sustain and harass most top laners


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Maylinchuuu

Member

07-07-2012

Jungling is actually pretty important in my opinion.. Of course that's if the jungler is actually any good. The ganks, the control of the map, and other stuff really help out. If the ganks are good, we just throw top lane off and the rest goes on from there. I'd imagine in Ranked it'd be really important.


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